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(Another meta-forum post)

Are we working here or just thinking, just gathering knowledge, just passing the time? Perhaps this forum is a place where we work out ideas that we use elsewhere? Do the posters on this forum have a common goal? Should we? We are all seeking truth? We are all seeking knowledge? That seems to vague, almost meaningless. Seeking knowledge to what end? A well lived life? Are we seeking knowledge of a greater goal that all humanity can believe in? Would that even be enough?

For myself, I want to work, not just think, but I want a goal to work for, with others. I don't want to come here only as I would go to a marketplace. Nor do I want to come here only as I would to a symposium for a symposium is just a drinking party, a pass-time. I want to come here to be a part of some greater project. I do not want to come here only as a merchant or a consumer, not only as a leisure activity, I want to come here to work on something. It is all three, but that last one, the working on something one, the common goal that we all have, I feel is missing, or perhaps it is just unstated. Do we all have a common goal on this forum that can't be reduced to mere acquisition or pass-time? To teach? To learn? To hone our craft? To what end? To what end?

@Deckard,

Deckard;141411 wrote:

(Another meta-forum post)

Are we working here or just thinking, just gathering knowledge, just passing the time? Perhaps this forum is a place where we work out ideas that we use elsewhere? Do the posters on this forum have a common goal? Should we? We are all seeking truth? We are all seeking knowledge? That seems to vague, almost meaningless. Seeking knowledge to what end? A well lived life? Are we seeking knowledge of a greater goal that all humanity can believe in? Would that even be enough?

For myself, I want to work, not just think, but I want a goal to work for, with others. I don't want to come here only as I would go to a marketplace. Nor do I want to come here only as I would to a symposium for a symposium is just a drinking party, a pass-time. I want to come here to be a part of some greater project. I do not want to come here only as a merchant or a consumer, not only as a leisure activity, I want to come here to work on something. It is all three, but that last one, the working on something one, the common goal that we all have, I feel is missing, or perhaps it is just unstated. Do we all have a common goal on this forum that can't be reduced to mere acquisition or pass-time? To teach? To learn? To hone our craft? To what end? To what end?

It is fun to discuss philosophy, and to teach others.

@Deckard,

if you figure out how to get that working for something together project going, let me know. i am still looking for one to join...outside of the gutenberg project i havent really found any that are actually doing something. doesnt sound very philosophical or spiritual but it is work.

for instance, there are websites like the one i found for world peace that got me nothing but spam 'come join me in' any and everything but not doing any damn thing at all. there are the famous name sites like scott peck, deepak chopra, that fellow who wrote the celestine prophecies, that are only a way of keeping interest in their books alive.

as for why i am here on the forum, it is a self help thing-purely selfish reasons, to improve some of the many skills i lack with the help of anonymity. if someone else is helped by anything i post, that is icing on the cake. having found genuine friends is also icing, way more than i ever expected. actually i am also learning things that i am sure will be of use to me.

i am sure there are as many reasons for members to be here as there are members.

@Deckard,

It's a year since I joined and I am still at it. I started out because a friend of mine and I started to discuss The God Delusion and Richard Dawkins views, which I don't like. So I spent a couple of weeks on the Dawkins forum arguing with the anti-God squad. Didn't like it, tried one other, then found this one. I have learned a lot, made many friends, and also done a lot of reading in response to what I have discussed here. I like to challenge and be challenged. I like to see how others think. My job (technical writer at large professional services company) is very good but not intellectually stimulating. And I love writing. A lot of my interests aren't strictly within the subject of philosophy but there is a fair amount of overlap. I guess that is about it. I often intend to spend more time doing other things but end up here again. (I can see that being a survey question.)

Overall I think it does have an aim, or there is one emerging. Let's see how it develops. I am thinking about going back to grad school next year, probably dept. studies in religion.

@Deckard,

I am enjoying this forum very much. I have not been here very long but I feel that I have learned much already. I hope to be thoughtful in my responses, polite and respectful. Hoping to provoke thought in others.
I enjoy the metaphors and wit, I get a good belly laugh at times. I am no academic, but I do get a lot from my limited ability to study.
Oh yeah, my ego, I must tell, I do like to see those thanks on there, some confirmation of my worth. My self-esteem is low at times and it makes a real difference when you say you understand. I try to project, and thank others for thier posts. We all have an inner child
The stimulation I find here is valid and worthwhile, I do my best to carry it away with me into my physical world.
I hope to let you see me in my words

Herewith consider thy ship boarded, aargh,,,, Pirate

@Deckard,

I'm not sure this is the place for me, I was looking for philosophical discussions, but here I more often then not feel others are lecturing AT each other and no discussion is even encouraged.

Lost1

@Lost1 phil,

Lost1;141519 wrote:

I'm not sure this is the place for me, I was looking for philosophical discussions, but here I more often then not feel others are lecturing AT each other and no discussion is even encouraged.

Lost1

sounds like normal society to me. Y point it out; may-be a philo-sophia would respond.

PS STAY ! Laughing

@Lost1 phil,

I came here for two reasons, both rather selfish. One was to keep what I had learned in school fresh and interesting and the other was simply to argue. LOL! To quote my ultimate goal on my home page, I intended to, "get into a really good, yet academically informed, good ole' essence of philosophy blood match with a fellow philosophy enthusiast the likes of which would turn Socrates white? well? whiter." LOL! I have to say that in the years on the forum both as a member and a moderator, I have had a dozen or so extremely stimulating conversations, some with the most unlikely members. Some of these members were so keen to detail, their responses so cogent, so apt to citation and evidence, that I could not help but admire them (especially when they argued against my stance on the topic). And even if that averages one every two months, I still find my time on philosophy forum not wasted. But I think as time goes on, you get used to the community and you want to take part in the grander mechanism. Opinionation gets old after a while and you tend to feel like you want to do something more constructive.

I don't think any of us could deny our own self interest being inextricably connected to our membership on the forum. Whether it is in our own self interest to help the community out, hone our craft, find friends, discuss anything whatsoever with likeminded individuals, etc., we choose to log on and contribute, to let our voices be heard on particular subjects.

But I think greater goals and projects are both great ideas and make the community much richer for it. I agree with this most ardently, and a few months after I started out on the forum, I started small little projects on the forum. One was the Logic Symposia thread series, which even today a few years after it was created, members still post their questions and comments. And interestingly enough, others have stepped into the role as tutors for both the thread series and the section in particular even after I long past lost interest in the subject. But I think the reason why it has been so successful was because it both explained a subject of philosophy little understood and was not based in opinions but fact, which over time, other people come to appreciate more because it shows them the answers they were seeking. I think the forum definitely needs more fact driven projects which would get the members involved. I cannot help but imagine the benefits for others of a forum where there were more threads on historical philosophy rather than opinionated armchair philosophy. I would urge members to start their own projects on the forum, either in thread series format or in the group area. Chances are that some of them may make such an impression on fellow members that they will be stickied and help serve as a instructional thread to other new members.

wayne;141499 wrote:

Oh yeah, my ego, I must tell, I do like to see those thanks on there, some confirmation of my worth. My self-esteem is low at times and it makes a real difference when you say you understand. I try to project, and thank others for thier posts. We all have an inner child

I completely agree with you. The thank you is a visible sign of your appreciation for other member's considerable thought and time they put into their post. You don't necessarily have to agree with other members in order to thank them, but to thank the conversation in general (which is worth more I think). I also think the thanked/thank-you ratio is an excellent quantifier for the character of the person you are speaking with. The "thanked" shows how many people appreciated your comment, but the "thanks" show how much you yourself appreciate other peoples comments.

Lost1;141519 wrote:

I'm not sure this is the place for me, I was looking for philosophical discussions, but here I more often then not feel others are lecturing AT each other and no discussion is even encouraged.

Sad to hear it Lost1. I suppose we have to make the most of whatever situation we find ourselves in. I would respectfully urge you to stay on the forum though, because may find that occasional member who will give you that golden discussion.

@Lost1 phil,

Lost1;141519 wrote:

I'm not sure this is the place for me, I was looking for philosophical discussions, but here I more often then not feel others are lecturing AT each other and no discussion is even encouraged.

Lost1

That happens quite a bit, but many people who state their position forcefully are very open to discussion (some aren't, lol). You can always test them out.

@salima,

salima;141432 wrote:

as for why i am here on the forum, it is a self help thing-purely selfish reasons, to improve some of the many skills i lack with the help of anonymity. if someone else is helped by anything i post, that is icing on the cake. having found genuine friends is also icing, way more than i ever expected. actually i am also learning things that i am sure will be of use to me.

i am sure there are as many reasons for members to be here as there are members.

Why would that be selfish? What are doing at the expense of others? The mere fact that you are not helping others does not mean that helping yourself is selfish, does it?

@Deckard,

Deckard;141411 wrote:

(Another meta-forum post)

Are we working here or just thinking, just gathering knowledge, just passing the time? Perhaps this forum is a place where we work out ideas that we use elsewhere? Do the posters on this forum have a common goal? Should we? We are all seeking truth? We are all seeking knowledge? That seems to vague, almost meaningless. Seeking knowledge to what end? A well lived life? Are we seeking knowledge of a greater goal that all humanity can believe in? Would that even be enough?

For myself, I want to work, not just think, but I want a goal to work for, with others. I don't want to come here only as I would go to a marketplace. Nor do I want to come here only as I would to a symposium for a symposium is just a drinking party, a pass-time. I want to come here to be a part of some greater project. I do not want to come here only as a merchant or a consumer, not only as a leisure activity, I want to come here to work on something. It is all three, but that last one, the working on something one, the common goal that we all have, I feel is missing, or perhaps it is just unstated. Do we all have a common goal on this forum that can't be reduced to mere acquisition or pass-time? To teach? To learn? To hone our craft? To what end? To what end?

To stimulate our senses, based on:

- seeking raw knowledge
- test our belives
- test our imagination
- test our selves
- seeking endulgence
- seeking attention
- enlighten some subjects
..etc

@Deckard,

Deckard;141411 wrote:

(Another meta-forum post)

Are we working here or just thinking, just gathering knowledge, just passing the time? Perhaps this forum is a place where we work out ideas that we use elsewhere? Do the posters on this forum have a common goal? Should we? We are all seeking truth? We are all seeking knowledge? That seems to vague, almost meaningless. Seeking knowledge to what end? A well lived life? Are we seeking knowledge of a greater goal that all humanity can believe in? Would that even be enough?

For myself, I want to work, not just think, but I want a goal to work for, with others. I don't want to come here only as I would go to a marketplace. Nor do I want to come here only as I would to a symposium for a symposium is just a drinking party, a pass-time. I want to come here to be a part of some greater project. I do not want to come here only as a merchant or a consumer, not only as a leisure activity, I want to come here to work on something. It is all three, but that last one, the working on something one, the common goal that we all have, I feel is missing, or perhaps it is just unstated. Do we all have a common goal on this forum that can't be reduced to mere acquisition or pass-time? To teach? To learn? To hone our craft? To what end? To what end?

Great post. As far as reasons go, you could probably divide us into 3 or 3 groups, according to our dominant motive. I was reading philosophy for years before I looked for a forum, and I came here most of all just to find those who appreciated the beauty and value of the philosophy that I myself found beautiful and valuable, as I don't find this much in the non-virtual(aka real world). But boys will be boys, and they can't help, sometimes, measuring their toys (euphemism for decency).

I don't mind symposiums, although I would hate to live a life of nothing but symposiums. My version of salvation is simply to be caught up in the beauty of form, in all its many sub-forms. I relate to the itch for a common goal. I think we are team players on a deep level, and that we crave meaningful cooperation AKA real community. Well, the Church is the bride of Christ, which is still a great metaphor, as I refuse to ditch the central myth of Western culture just because God moved out of the sky and into the unnameable....

I can't help but see the right kind of self-consciousness as the goal. A self-consciousness that finds self in others and others in the self. Twin spirals. One that opens (inclusive) and one that tightens (exclusive). The tightening one is us reducing our equations to lowest terms, making them as graceful as possible. The widening spiral is us coming to understand more and more types of other human beings...an extension of sympathy, an escape from our contingent boundaries. So I suppose philosophy can serve a religious /aesthetic function within the bounds of Reason.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;141547 wrote:

Why would that be selfish? What are doing at the expense of others? The mere fact that you are not helping others does not mean that helping yourself is selfish, does it?

:bigsmile:I am on the forum to meet people who call themselves lovers of Sophia. She is the prometida for God; we have to let her go. That's Evolution.

Hermes 1,2,3,etc. will teach US follow. Or at least be at the wedding. In dis-agree with the Church being Christs bride. Poly-gamie is not a thing I look forward to. Abondon the Churches, Mosques and other Holy places. Find your inner sanctuary.

PS send me receipy 4 frosting Please.
:popcorn:

@Deckard,

Deckard;141411 wrote:

(Another meta-forum post)

Are we working here or just thinking, just gathering knowledge, just passing the time? Perhaps this forum is a place where we work out ideas that we use elsewhere? Do the posters on this forum have a common goal? Should we? We are all seeking truth? We are all seeking knowledge? That seems to vague, almost meaningless. Seeking knowledge to what end? A well lived life? Are we seeking knowledge of a greater goal that all humanity can believe in? Would that even be enough?

For myself, I want to work, not just think, but I want a goal to work for, with others. I don't want to come here only as I would go to a marketplace. Nor do I want to come here only as I would to a symposium for a symposium is just a drinking party, a pass-time. I want to come here to be a part of some greater project. I do not want to come here only as a merchant or a consumer, not only as a leisure activity, I want to come here to work on something. It is all three, but that last one, the working on something one, the common goal that we all have, I feel is missing, or perhaps it is just unstated. Do we all have a common goal on this forum that can't be reduced to mere acquisition or pass-time? To teach? To learn? To hone our craft? To what end? To what end?

It keeps changing,
Like breath, inward then outward, sometimes caught in the throat, sometimes to resuscitate.
Breathing takes effort sometimes, but sometimes it is just nice to breathe.
Perchance to feel the breeze, perchace to blow the wind.
Wind is not here empty but only makes a sound because of what it touches and is touched by.
We are the wind-mills.

Philosophy as a Forum is more than just the love of life. It is living it.

To love life you need to show up for it.

@Deckard,

I joined up a few years ago so that I could get some outside critical feedback instead having to do all the dirty work of second-guessing myself, by myself. This forum has definetly held up it's end of the bargain.

Also, most of the people I know well enough in "real" life that are willing to have an in depth discussion about beliefs are from a similar background as me, and I wanted a bit more diversity in criticism.

@NeitherExtreme,

NeitherExtreme;141764 wrote:

I joined up a few years ago so that I could get some outside critical feedback instead having to do all the dirty work of second-guessing myself, by myself. This forum has definetly held up it's end of the bargain.

The confirmation or correction that his forum provides is perhaps the most valuable. Also the leads it provides to other ideas and areas of study. Put an idea out there and see if it holds up. A place to test theories. I think I agree with you for the large part that this is why I find the forum valuable. It is not merely a marketplace to buy and sell nor an arena to battle it out, nor a symposium but more of a laboratory. That is work. There is no clear greater goal unifying this collection of experiments or none that i can see clearly but I like the idea of an emergent goal that others have mentioned on this thread. Perhaps this is not the place to lay the foundation for some greater project. Such attempts might affect the laboratory environment in adverse ways.

Besides, I think there must be at least a few places where such foundations have already been laid down. I'm looking for some kind of institute or organization. I need to find some kind of employment in the non-profit sector. That would satisfy this desire.

@Deckard,

Therapy without having to pay for a therapist. Smile

We all need to intergrate to be able to debate. (better)
We all need to debate to be able to intergrate. (better)

@sometime sun,

sometime sun;141791 wrote:

Therapy without having to pay for a therapist.

We all need to intergrate to be able to debate. (better)
We all need to debate to be able to intergrate. (better)

Yeah I think there's a little bit of a hospital here too, an apothecary, a therapist. Sometimes we are looking for a cure for ourselves, sometimes for someone else and generally the later implies the former.

This all reminds me of a short song I wrote a while back:

Quote:

Don't think of us as them
Although we're trying
We're not that organized
It would only screw things up anyway

Save, save or be saved
It's every one for themselves then
And there are no leaders here,
they would only get in the way

There's a bridge that I will play 'never settled on the words to say.
There's a bridge that I will play 'never settled on the words to say.

Just don't think of us as them
Don't think of us as them

Open to suggestions on that bridge part. Just pay attention to the meter.

@Deckard,

Deckard;141795 wrote:

Yeah I think there's a little bit of a hospital here too, an apothecary, a therapist. Sometimes we are looking for a cure for ourselves, sometimes for someone else and generally the later implies the former.

This reminds me of a short song I wrote a while back:

This goes for everyone;
I may enjoy the walk here, but ultimately i am here for you, to seek, greet, meet you.
I am not as interested in me finding me as i am in me finding you.
I suppose this is still self interest but it is you that makes me interested and even interesting.
As for you finding me, well that is just not up to me no matter how hard i may or not try to be found or shine.
If you cant find or see me why should it bother me? The fact is it shouldn't even if it still does.
Does this make me vain, or you just blind?
Doesn't matter if my reason is just to see or make you shine.
Catch some of your light, make of you mine.

---------- Post added 03-21-2010 at 06:59 AM ----------

A question would be, is it more or less selfish or selfless to expect more from others than you do of your self?
As long as i give enough of myself should i expect anything in return?
Is what we give and get free?
Do we not owe ourselves to each other?
Do we not own ourselves because of each other?

---------- Post added 03-21-2010 at 07:10 AM ----------

It is a catch 22, if selfless is what serves you by you serving, are you still not self serving therefore selfish?

Is not the purer state of selflessness to give to nobody or even to give to nobody but yourself?

I think i just proved selfishness and selflessness dont exist or that only selfishness does or only selflssness does.
But i think i just proved that both cannot?

@sometime sun,

sometime sun;141798 wrote:

A question would be, is it more or less selfish or selfless to expect more from others than you do of your self?
As long as i give enough of myself should i expect anything in return?
Is what we give and get free?
Do we not owe ourselves to each other?
Do we not own ourselves because of each other?

Maybe nobody owns anybody. Maybe we don't even own ourselves. It's not transactional or quid pro quo or tit for tat. Don't give anything to anybody just share. Don't sacrifice expecting something in return just share. Granted there will be those who believe they have received something, that they own a part of you, that they have taken a part of you, that it is theirs now and not yours. But such people are delusional. They walk away empty handed and out of touch with reality. Granted there are so many delusional people out there reinforcing each others delusions, the majority even, but that makes them no less delusional. There is no give and take transaction to be bargained and haggled over, to be cheated out of or to take. There is only sharing and not sharing. Everything else is a delusion.

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