Human Denial

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Jebediah
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 03:10 pm
@dave2770,
dave2770;141647 wrote:
But the no big deal part comes from the fact that she had a bad computer for so long, that she made herself believe that it truly does not matter. Here is what happened. She realized that her computer sucked, and instead of doing anything about, she didnt, because she didnt have money, so, she got used to it more and more, and eventually, she tried to convince herself that it does not matter, and after a while, she slowly forgot about the fact that she does care a bit, and she truly began believing that she didnt care, but yet, she also knew at the same time that she did a bit.


But to say "it's no big deal" implies that yes, it sucks, but it isn't important that it sucks. And, in truth, it doesn't matter that much. So she was simply correct, and doesn't like complaining, which is an admirable trait.
 
dave2770
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 03:43 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;141674 wrote:
But to say "it's no big deal" implies that yes, it sucks, but it isn't important that it sucks. And, in truth, it doesn't matter that much. So she was simply correct, and doesn't like complaining, which is an admirable trait.



How do you explain the anger? In her heart, she will convince herself that she got angry because she was getting annoyed, but the truth is that she didn't want to admit to herself that she is was in denial.

Do I need a better example? Why do people want to argue about everything? Maybe I should write a better example huh?
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 03:51 pm
@dave2770,
dave2770;141693 wrote:
How do you explain the anger? In her heart, she will convince herself that she got angry because she was getting annoyed, but the truth is that she didn't want to admit to herself that she is was in denial.

Do I need a better example? Why do people want to argue about everything? Maybe I should write a better example huh?


I think it's hard to tell why people are doing things. Maybe she was just getting annoyed. People get annoyed when repeatedly asked questions like that. How do you know she was doing this:

Quote:
Denial: Refusal to accept external reality because it is too threatening; arguing against an anxiety-provoking stimulus by stating it doesn't exist; resolution of emotional conflict and reduction of anxiety by refusing to perceive or consciously acknowledge the more unpleasant aspects of external reality.
And not this:

Quote:
Thought suppression: The conscious process of pushing thoughts into the preconscious; the conscious decision to delay paying attention to an emotion or need in order to cope with the present reality; making it possible to later access uncomfortable or distressing emotions while accepting them.
Or this:
Quote:
Sublimation: Transformation of negative emotions or instincts into positive actions, behavior, or emotion.
From here:

Defence mechanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
dave2770
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 04:13 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;141702 wrote:
I think it's hard to tell why people are doing things. Maybe she was just getting annoyed. People get annoyed when repeatedly asked questions like that. How do you know she was doing this:

And not this:

Or this:
From here:

Defence mechanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Well I think about anything Philosophy related myself. I never read books, watch videos, or go on wiki to learn about it. Everything about Philosophy that interests me comes from my own thoughts. I am going to say that perhaps my example was bad, but my point is that every Human has some type of denial in them. The wiki link you provided me pretty much confirmed that what I thought about is true. Every human has a defense mechanism, without it, there would be a lot of sorrow.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 05:29 pm
@dave2770,
dave2770;141386 wrote:
Human Denial is the thing that makes us happy.

I will begin by going straight into an example of how denial works, in fact, if you dont agree with me, then you are denying yourself.

Anyway, suppose that there is this girl who has a computer that does not run well, and does not have money to get a better computer. She knows there are faster computers, but does not have the money.

So one day I go to her house, and as she is browsing the internet, the computer shuts off, and she has to restart it. I tell her why dont you get another computer, and she says "Its ok, im used to it", then I will tell her "but wouldnt you like a better and faster computer" and she replies with "no, its fine, im used to it" and then, she denies herself and makes her feel better by saying "its no big deal, you just wait 2 minutes for it to restart".

Then i keep telling her just get a new computer, and she keeps saying its ok, and the more I tell her, the more I am breaking her heart and showing her that she is in denial, once she finally accepts in her heart that what im saying is true and that she really is in denial, she makes one last effort to evade this truth, and she gets angry and starts yelling. First she will tell you I told you a thousand times I dont care, then if you keep saying, she will say your crazy, then, she will tell you to leave and never come back.

Did you see what happened here? She was in denial the whole time. She got used to the fact her computer sucked, she wanted a new one, had no money, so she created the illusion that she was ok with that fact, this kept her stable, and when the truth was told, she feared that this stableness would disappear, so she kept denying and denying until she came back with a final brutal strike of denial that masqueraded itself in anger.

This is the human denial in which we all have. Everyday we live in denial and dont know it because we have been hiding it for so long.

And now you know the Philosophy of Human Denial.
Denial is imo a selfpreservational instinct, with it's counterpart ..naivity.
It's there to filter out:

- lies
- exaggeration
- manipulation
- intimidation
..etc

Sorry to say that your storry's anology is very poor, and doesn't really grasp the concept of denial.
 
William
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 06:23 pm
@dave2770,
dave2770;141386 wrote:
Anyway, suppose that there is this girl who has a computer that does not run well, and does not have money to get a better computer. She knows there are faster computers, but does not have the money.


I understand what you are saying but this is not denial. Perhaps she did know she needed a "better, faster" computer, but you offered yourself she couldn't AFFORD one. You were forcing your opinion on her trying to get her to do something she knew she couldn't do and to avoid facing the fact that was out of her control, she was happy with the one she had.

There are literally millions and millions of people in that same boat and if they could they would remedy the situation. You were in the wrong here by pressing her. Big time.

Now if she could afford one it might be a little different, but still that is not denial. You were trying to get her to have the same feelings you have regarding your computer and perhaps she was not that zealous. It could be she was telling you the truth and didn't want to hurt your feelings and she really could care less if her computer was better or not.

She was not 'doing something wrong and creating erroneous excuses'. Not by a long shot. If anything she was being polite. :whistling:

William
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 06:41 pm
@William,
Is acceptance the denial of everything else?
 
William
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 07:01 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;141743 wrote:
Is acceptance the denial of everything else?


Ha, absolutely............................for the time being. Ha!

William
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Sun 23 May, 2010 10:02 am
@dave2770,
Let me add to my former post.

- evasive denial = dispence a lie to terminate an annoying coversation.

- group think denial = a subconcious relex act of denial which will overwrite reason and logic. The person in denial, can have clarity about the act of denial at a later moment.

- fully psycotic denial = person have a total block of reason and logic, and will at any time fully justify the denial.
 
LordScroop
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 05:24 am
@dave2770,
"Which leads me to the fact that people that desire the reality of being in power, give us a reality instead of letting ourselves create one, and they use the guise of bringing order and safety to society. If there was anarchy today, people probably would go crazy since everyone believes that this is what will happen."

Everything old is new again. What I have read of Stalin and MAO consumed my thoughts of the injustice the masses were put through. The total control of the peoples did not sit well with me.(these books were full of highly emotional phrases) Western democracies are passing laws on a daily basis to safeguard their populations. Of course it is leading to total control of the populations. Everybody can have a different perception of this or any other thing. A person who holds strong beliefs /perception could be re-educated to switch . Therefore its a game of managing puppet plebeian people. There being no real right or wrong. Religion has a good history of making up wrongs, more so than right. Yo need to develop wrongs to create power and control. It can't be done with right, only wrong!
 
Khethil
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 06:31 am
@dave2770,
Dave,

I wasn't sure I should respond to this - you seem to be pretty absolute; lacking any sense of openness that might mitigate or improve on your ideas. In any case, I thought I'd give it a shot; take it for what it's worth.

dave2770;141386 wrote:
Human Denial is the thing that makes us happy


You've not shown how this could possibly be. Its counter intuitive in that by its nature, Denial dictates that one refuses something that's self evident, true or a thing that this person wants. Its left-field; can you support it at all? - Because you haven't thus far.

dave2770;141386 wrote:
...in fact, if you dont agree with me, then you are denying yourself.


This is a terrible way to preface your ideas. Its arrogant in that it supposes you're absolutely correct without explaining anything; we call this dogma, likely filled with ego. Lose it; or you'll find your ideas - which might be quite good - tossed aside by pretty much everyone.

dave2770;141386 wrote:
... she says "Its ok, im used to it", then I will tell her "but wouldnt you like a better and faster computer" and she replies with "no, its fine, im used to it" and then, she denies herself and makes her feel better by saying "its no big deal, you just wait 2 minutes for it to restart".


How, exactly, do you know that her not wanting another computer has anything to do with 'denial'? It could be. But its also just as likely that for her a faster, better functioning computer just isn't worth it. If this is the case, even a little bit, she's simply weighed her options and decided what she'll likely gain isn't what she's going to have to spend - which on the surface strikes me as reasonable and prudent. There are other possibilities too - never assume you know what's going on inside another person's head.

dave2770;141386 wrote:
Then i keep telling her just get a new computer, and she keeps saying its ok, and the more I tell her, the more I am breaking her heart...


This is badgering; your pushing the issue is a poor way to interact with a friend. Through your eyes, it seems her refusal is irrational because you're looking at it through your eyes. Exactly how is it that your priorities - your solution - is so superior that it warrants bringing a 'friend' to tears? I can't imagine how this is a good thing.

dave2770;141386 wrote:
...then, she will tell you to leave and never come back.


Can you blame her?

dave2770;141386 wrote:
She got used to the fact her computer sucked, she wanted a new one, had no money, so she created the illusion that she was ok with that fact, this kept her stable, and when the truth was told, she feared that this stableness would disappear, so she kept denying and denying until she came back with a final brutal strike of denial that masqueraded itself in anger.


I think you're right in that there's a good possibility she simply accepted her computer's malfunctions due to money limitations (which is probably wise). When she says, "It's OK" it sounds like she's telling you that the problem, for now at least, is at its best resolution. The anger (again, as it sounds to me) is probably at you for being rude.

dave2770;141386 wrote:
This is the human denial in which we all have. Everyday we live in denial and dont know it because we have been hiding it for so long.


On a philosophical level, zooming back the camera here to a wider view, this is probably true. When I want or need something, if I can't attain my goal I'll probably "settle" for either having nothing or something 'lesser'. If I am not honest and say I don't want it or I don't therefore need it, then yes; I'd call that a form of denial. But there are many issues surrounding the filling of our needs and desires: compromise, controlling our wants, the extent to which we can discern between a need -vs- a desire, outside pressures to have or attain that are not our own, etc., etc. To label all such behaviors as forms of denial is stretching it a bit, I think.

Anyway, I'm guessing you're not going to like this or agree with it - that's fine. I spent the time typing out this to you (and others) in the hope that it might help open them doors a bit. We all become fixated on <this> or <that> idea as being the cause for <whatever>; I do it quite a bit myself. But as you've shared your thoughts I can only hope that some diverse input might be have some value.

Thanks
 
Ding an Sich
 
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 06:34 am
@dave2770,
dave2770;141386 wrote:
Human Denial is the thing that makes us happy.

I will begin by going straight into an example of how denial works, in fact, if you dont agree with me, then you are denying yourself.

Anyway, suppose that there is this girl who has a computer that does not run well, and does not have money to get a better computer. She knows there are faster computers, but does not have the money.

So one day I go to her house, and as she is browsing the internet, the computer shuts off, and she has to restart it. I tell her why dont you get another computer, and she says "Its ok, im used to it", then I will tell her "but wouldnt you like a better and faster computer" and she replies with "no, its fine, im used to it" and then, she denies herself and makes her feel better by saying "its no big deal, you just wait 2 minutes for it to restart".

Then i keep telling her just get a new computer, and she keeps saying its ok, and the more I tell her, the more I am breaking her heart and showing her that she is in denial, once she finally accepts in her heart that what im saying is true and that she really is in denial, she makes one last effort to evade this truth, and she gets angry and starts yelling. First she will tell you I told you a thousand times I dont care, then if you keep saying, she will say your crazy, then, she will tell you to leave and never come back.

Did you see what happened here? She was in denial the whole time. She got used to the fact her computer sucked, she wanted a new one, had no money, so she created the illusion that she was ok with that fact, this kept her stable, and when the truth was told, she feared that this stableness would disappear, so she kept denying and denying until she came back with a final brutal strike of denial that masqueraded itself in anger.

This is the human denial in which we all have. Everyday we live in denial and dont know it because we have been hiding it for so long.

And now you know the Philosophy of Human Denial.


Or maybe should was ok with it because she had no money? Otherwise she wouldve already purchased a new computer. She might not be ok with the fact that she has an old computer that sucks, but for the meantime she has to deal with it, which she is ok with (because she has no money).
 
 

 
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