Human Denial

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Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 07:28 pm
Human Denial is the thing that makes us happy.

I will begin by going straight into an example of how denial works, in fact, if you dont agree with me, then you are denying yourself.

Anyway, suppose that there is this girl who has a computer that does not run well, and does not have money to get a better computer. She knows there are faster computers, but does not have the money.

So one day I go to her house, and as she is browsing the internet, the computer shuts off, and she has to restart it. I tell her why dont you get another computer, and she says "Its ok, im used to it", then I will tell her "but wouldnt you like a better and faster computer" and she replies with "no, its fine, im used to it" and then, she denies herself and makes her feel better by saying "its no big deal, you just wait 2 minutes for it to restart".

Then i keep telling her just get a new computer, and she keeps saying its ok, and the more I tell her, the more I am breaking her heart and showing her that she is in denial, once she finally accepts in her heart that what im saying is true and that she really is in denial, she makes one last effort to evade this truth, and she gets angry and starts yelling. First she will tell you I told you a thousand times I dont care, then if you keep saying, she will say your crazy, then, she will tell you to leave and never come back.

Did you see what happened here? She was in denial the whole time. She got used to the fact her computer sucked, she wanted a new one, had no money, so she created the illusion that she was ok with that fact, this kept her stable, and when the truth was told, she feared that this stableness would disappear, so she kept denying and denying until she came back with a final brutal strike of denial that masqueraded itself in anger.

This is the human denial in which we all have. Everyday we live in denial and dont know it because we have been hiding it for so long.

And now you know the Philosophy of Human Denial.
 
mister kitten
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 07:40 pm
@dave2770,
dave2770;141386 wrote:

I will begin by going straight into an example of how denial works, in fact, if you dont agree with me, then you are denying yourself.



Denying with you, not myself.
Her opinion of the computer's efficiency was not yours.
Maybe you were in denial.
Maybe denial is the rejection of a rational opinion?
 
dave2770
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 07:41 pm
@mister kitten,
No not this time, there are many times where both parties are in denial, but this time, she was the only one lying to herself.
 
mister kitten
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 07:42 pm
@dave2770,
Denial is lying to oneself? Lying about reality?
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 07:50 pm
@mister kitten,
mister kitten;141389 wrote:
Denial is lying to oneself? Lying about reality?

No denial is.............being afraid of the truth but not necessarily lying about it.
Denial of the truth just means you have not as yet come to accept it.
Does not mean one cannot see it on the horizon.
Running form the rising sun.
It will still always catch you.
Unless you live in darknesss.
But dont worry nothing lasts long wihtout the sun.
sometime is enough sun for now.
Not always.
And sertainly not forever.
 
dave2770
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 07:54 pm
@mister kitten,
mister kitten;141389 wrote:
Denial is lying to oneself? Lying about reality?



Since I can not make another thread till tomorrow, I will tell you that any and every reality is a complete illusion. Whatever you believe to be good, or bad, or true, or false, is completely an illusion. Life does exist in some way, you are in the world existing in some form, and this form is an arrangement of atoms creating a mind, and more arrangement of atoms creating a shell or an armor of the mind, but reality is all fake.

I will go through more detail if anyone asks.
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 08:05 pm
@dave2770,
dave i am asking, go on, go on, go on.

Is there any other being in creation that knows how to deny,
other than that of the human or that of the child?
 
dave2770
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 08:17 pm
@sometime sun,
Well I'm going to try to simplify it.

Anyway, in todays world, reality is given. You are born, and your parents take care of you, make you follow rules, and you lead on to school and a job. This is the democratic reality. Its how everyone in America lives.

If you were born, and your parents abandoned you at 5 years old in some jungle 3000 years ago, you would create your own reality by perhaps finding your own food, and by befriending horses and creating a horse trade business. This would be the reality you created for youself, but its all fake. Its only in the mind, just like a dream. This reality does not have to be, it can be anything.

And DNA is a good recorder. People living in jungles or deserts or cold places all have their own GENETIC traits. The reality in which they live in(and it does not have to be a place), leads on into other generations, and manifests itself in them.

The man with the fake reality does exist, but his reality is false. Like I said, he could have been born in another parallel universe where you can go door to door and have sex with your neighbors wife or husband and it would be perfectly ok, where as its not ok in our reality.

I also believe that the ancient reality of government or monarchy and the population control they enforced perhaps made it so through generations, women would have longer pregnancies. Just a speculation, but it could be, and we dont really know.

Which leads me to the fact that people that desire the reality of being in power, give us a reality instead of letting ourselves create one, and they use the guise of bringing order and safety to society. If there was anarchy today, people probably would go crazy since everyone believes that this is what will happen.

Whatever you experience is reality, and if you experienced something else, it would be another reality, and this reality is all false.

I truly can not comprehend at this time what a true reality is.

Also, we receive reality only through our senses, without them, there is no reality at all. But when you get these senses, what happens? An illusion of reality is created,

I hate seeing posters that saying Reality vs Illusion, when in reality, reality is an illusion(no pun intended btw).

Damn it, I am not explaining this too well, I keep forgetting all my revelations. They are hard to come by and fade quickly.
 
mister kitten
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 08:24 pm
@dave2770,
I second sometime sun's asking.
What if robots are programmed to deny? Is that the same?
Can denial be a physical problem? Or is it all emotional? Something else?
 
dave2770
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 08:30 pm
@mister kitten,
mister kitten;141395 wrote:
I second sometime sun's asking.
What if robots are programmed to deny? Is that the same?
Can denial be a physical problem? Or is it all emotional? Something else?


Did you not think outside the box? The root of her anger and denial was to keep stability and happiness in her life. Realizing that her computer life is in fact in error, would cause instability in her life, therefore she, without even knowing, kept denying that she truly cares, so she would feel the same, and not change into unknown territory not knowing what to expect.

If i said that she lied than I am sorry I messed up. Human's in Denial most of the time dont even know that they are in denial.

Sorry, she wasnt lying, she thought she was speaking the truth in her mind but she was not. Her anger that came out was the realization of this truth, but she kept pushing this realization aside and didnt let it come to light, and she got angry to hide this fact.

Its hard to explain, its something you have to think about. You have to take yourself out of the universe, and then try to realize what is up in situations like this.
 
mister kitten
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 08:39 pm
@dave2770,
How can you speak of truth in a "reality [which] is all false."?
Maybe you are in denial?
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 09:00 pm
@dave2770,
dave2770;141386 wrote:
Human Denial is the thing that makes us happy.

I will begin by going straight into an example of how denial works, in fact, if you dont agree with me, then you are denying yourself.

Anyway, suppose that there is this girl who has a computer that does not run well, and does not have money to get a better computer. She knows there are faster computers, but does not have the money.

So one day I go to her house, and as she is browsing the internet, the computer shuts off, and she has to restart it. I tell her why dont you get another computer, and she says "Its ok, im used to it", then I will tell her "but wouldnt you like a better and faster computer" and she replies with "no, its fine, im used to it" and then, she denies herself and makes her feel better by saying "its no big deal, you just wait 2 minutes for it to restart".

Then i keep telling her just get a new computer, and she keeps saying its ok, and the more I tell her, the more I am breaking her heart and showing her that she is in denial, once she finally accepts in her heart that what im saying is true and that she really is in denial, she makes one last effort to evade this truth, and she gets angry and starts yelling. First she will tell you I told you a thousand times I dont care, then if you keep saying, she will say your crazy, then, she will tell you to leave and never come back.

Did you see what happened here? She was in denial the whole time. She got used to the fact her computer sucked, she wanted a new one, had no money, so she created the illusion that she was ok with that fact, this kept her stable, and when the truth was told, she feared that this stableness would disappear, so she kept denying and denying until she came back with a final brutal strike of denial that masqueraded itself in anger.

This is the human denial in which we all have. Everyday we live in denial and dont know it because we have been hiding it for so long.

And now you know the Philosophy of Human Denial.


[INDENT][INDENT]The Fox and the Grapes is a fable attributed to Aesop.
One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I am sure they are sour."[/INDENT][/INDENT]

[INDENT][INDENT]The Fox and the Grapes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/INDENT][/INDENT]

Aesop lived circa 620-564 BCE.

But whether this is the way everyone is or not is something that should be supported by evidence rather than merely claimed. If you are right, you are in denial. And you may be in denial even if you are wrong, as it may be that some people are in denial without everyone being in denial. Perhaps you are in denial when you are claiming that everyone else is in denial in order to make yourself feel better about being in denial.
 
dave2770
 
Reply Fri 19 Mar, 2010 09:03 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;141401 wrote:
[INDENT][INDENT]The Fox and the Grapes is a fable attributed to Aesop.
One hot summer's day a Fox was strolling through an orchard till he came to a bunch of Grapes just ripening on a vine which had been trained over a lofty branch. "Just the thing to quench my thirst," quoth he. Drawing back a few paces, he took a run and a jump, and just missed the bunch. Turning round again with a One, Two, Three, he jumped up, but with no greater success. Again and again he tried after the tempting morsel, but at last had to give it up, and walked away with his nose in the air, saying: "I am sure they are sour."[/INDENT][/INDENT][INDENT][INDENT]The Fox and the Grapes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/INDENT][/INDENT]Aesop lived circa 620-564 BCE.

But whether this is the way everyone is or not is something that should be supported by evidence rather than merely claimed. If you are right, you are in denial. And you may be in denial even if you are wrong, as it may be that some people are in denial without everyone being in denial. Perhaps you are in denial when you are claiming that everyone else is in denial in order to make yourself feel better about being in denial.



I didnt point fingers. Im in denial too.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 01:07 am
@dave2770,
dave2770;141394 wrote:
Anyway, in todays world, reality is given. You are born, and your parents take care of you, make you follow rules, and you lead on to school and a job. This is the democratic reality. Its how everyone in America lives.
As the majority of the world is outside America, your argument fails here.
 
dave2770
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 02:30 am
@ughaibu,
sorry but reality is given to anyone that is born right away, almost no human being creates their own reality in this world anymore
 
Lost1 phil
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 08:57 am
@dave2770,
dave2770;141454 wrote:
sorry but reality is given to anyone that is born right away, almost no human being creates their own reality in this world anymore


We can not creates reality -- what we are doing is taking what is known to ourselves and hoping our perception will closely aline with REALITY .
That which we personally perceive as real can, of course, be referred to as our "own reality" -- but as humans we have no means by which to know with 100% certainity that it is REALITY .

As far as denial, if you use it as a safety net to get you from point A to point B with the least amount of emotional destress it's a good thing. If you use it as a shield to protect yourself from things that need dealing with and are being avoided it's a bad thing.

That girl in your example would have become a believer in what you were attempting to teach if you would have given her the newer, faster, etc. with which to work. Her denial might have been her means by which to cope with not having the funds to purchase a newer, faster, "better" computer...or it might have been her fear of change over all -- nothing in your example leads to those conclusions, however.

Lost1
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 09:58 am
@dave2770,
dave2770;141402 wrote:
I didnt point fingers. Im in denial too.


On the contrary, you did point fingers:


dave2770;141386 wrote:
...
This is the human denial in which we all have. Everyday we live in denial [emphasis added] and dont know it because we have been hiding it for so long.

...


You have accused everyone of something, but you have not provided evidence that it really applies to everyone. Maybe it does apply to everyone, but whether it does or not should be decided by an examination of evidence, don't you think? If so, where is the evidence?
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 10:46 am
@dave2770,
"Denial" is generally used for things like alcoholics claiming they don't have a problem. It's about denying a painful thoughts. I don't think her thought about a computer was really that painful. The fox and the grapes story describes it more accurately.

I think most people are well aware that they shush certain thoughts.

And dave, as far as the original example. She never once denied that the computer sucked. It's just, as she said "not a big deal", and I agree. Why the heck would you keep asking her anyway? Or was that just an example.
 
dave2770
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 01:35 pm
@Jebediah,
Jebediah;141586 wrote:
"Denial" is generally used for things like alcoholics claiming they don't have a problem. It's about denying a painful thoughts. I don't think her thought about a computer was really that painful. The fox and the grapes story describes it more accurately.

I think most people are well aware that they shush certain thoughts.

And dave, as far as the original example. She never once denied that the computer sucked. It's just, as she said "not a big deal", and I agree. Why the heck would you keep asking her anyway? Or was that just an example.


But the no big deal part comes from the fact that she had a bad computer for so long, that she made herself believe that it truly does not matter. Here is what happened. She realized that her computer sucked, and instead of doing anything about, she didnt, because she didnt have money, so, she got used to it more and more, and eventually, she tried to convince herself that it does not matter, and after a while, she slowly forgot about the fact that she does care a bit, and she truly began believing that she didnt care, but yet, she also knew at the same time that she did a bit.

Its very hard to explain. Maybe next time I meditate I will have a tape recorded near me so I can record my thoughts.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Sat 20 Mar, 2010 01:45 pm
@dave2770,
dave2770;141647 wrote:
But the no big deal part comes from the fact that she had a bad computer for so long, that she made herself believe that it truly does not matter. Here is what happened. She realized that her computer sucked, and instead of doing anything about, she didnt, because she didnt have money, so, she got used to it more and more, and eventually, she tried to convince herself that it does not matter, and after a while, she slowly forgot about the fact that she does care a bit, and she truly began believing that she didnt care, but yet, she also knew at the same time that she did a bit.

Its very hard to explain. Maybe next time I meditate I will have a tape recorded near me so I can record my thoughts.



Let me get this straight: You are saying, she did not have the money to do anything about it, yet you wanted her to do something about it? Do you not see the problem with that? If she can't do anything about it, taking the attitude that it isn't the best (which it wasn't) and saying that it still does work (which it did) is probably the best approach she could take. Or do you imagine that she can magically produce money that she does not have in order to buy a new computer? From your description, I am becoming less and less convinced that this is even an example of sour grapes. She made do with what she had, because she could not do otherwise. To use a trite saying, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. Wanting a new computer does not, by itself, get you a new computer.
 
 

 
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