Monarchy

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Camerama
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 10:48 am
@xris,
xris;130225 wrote:
Why do you love your mother ?



Certainly not BECAUSE she is my mother. However, I will not ignore your loaded question. I love my mother, because she is maternal, compassionate, mild mannered, and dependable. Now, my question to you is why do you love your queen? You afford a predetermined figurehead your love(this is an assumption), devoid of any personal connection? For what reason(s)?
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 12:55 pm
@Camerama,
Camerama;131418 wrote:
Certainly not BECAUSE she is my mother. However, I will not ignore your loaded question. I love my mother, because she is maternal, compassionate, mild mannered, and dependable. Now, my question to you is why do you love your queen? You afford a predetermined figurehead your love(this is an assumption), devoid of any personal connection? For what reason(s)?
But it is personal, she represents the determination, the historic values. She joins all of us, left and right, white and black, into a feeling of love of our country.When she represents us, its for all our benefit. She maintains a certain steadfastness, through good and bad times. I cant say any monarch would instill that love, but she does. She is my queen, I love her, I have sworn in earnest, to defend her.
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 01:05 pm
@xris,
xris;131476 wrote:
But it is personal, she represents [emphasis added] the determination, the historic values. She joins all of us, left and right, white and black, into a feeling of love of our country.When she represents us, its for all our benefit. She maintains a certain steadfastness, through good and bad times. I cant say any monarch would instill that love, but she does. She is my queen, I love her, I have sworn in earnest, to defend her.


Why do you need a representative of something to love instead of directly loving what that representative represents?

(Please note, I have nothing personal against your queen; I know of nothing terribly wrong with her, and even regard the media as being largely unfair to her in criticizing her choice in hats.)


This reminds me of the Americans who have a great passion for the American flag, yet often are really haters of much of what it represents (e.g., the Bill of Rights and other basic aspects of the U.S.). I do not, however, mean to suggest that you are like such people in all respects, but I do find it curious that people get obsessed with symbols instead of focussing on that which is symbolized.
 
Raine
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 01:05 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;129076 wrote:
I am a monarchist, I love my Queen even if i dont serve her.

But what is the meaning of Monarchy today and is it all about yesterdays.

What makes an un crowned country better than a crowned one?

Would you rather have one or rather be without one?



I am completely opposed to our (or any) monarchy. I see it as a completely outdated institution that has no relevance to our modern society.

I find the arguments that people use to defend the monarchy repetitive and ridiculous ( i.e "tradition" "brings money to the country"), and find it difficult to understand why people would choose to support something that is a symbol of class oppression and inequality.

I completely agree with a previous point in this thread that the monarchy is simply a form of institutionalised discrimination. Would you make a doctor's daughter a doctor also, simply because she happens to belong to that bloodline?

For me, the monarchy represents everything I dislike about society.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 01:46 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;131479 wrote:
Why do you need a representative of something to love instead of directly loving what that representative represents?

(Please note, I have nothing personal against your queen; I know of nothing terribly wrong with her, and even regard the media as being largely unfair to her in criticizing her choice in hats.)


This reminds me of the Americans who have a great passion for the American flag, yet often are really haters of much of what it represents (e.g., the Bill of Rights and other basic aspects of the U.S.). I do not, however, mean to suggest that you are like such people in all respects, but I do find it curious that people get obsessed with symbols instead of focussing on that which is symbolized.
Nothing like worshipping a flag. I find her a uniting symbol, flags can be divisive.

---------- Post added 02-23-2010 at 02:56 PM ----------

Raine;131480 wrote:
I am completely opposed to our (or any) monarchy. I see it as a completely outdated institution that has no relevance to our modern society.

I find the arguments that people use to defend the monarchy repetitive and ridiculous ( i.e "tradition" "brings money to the country"), and find it difficult to understand why people would choose to support something that is a symbol of class oppression and inequality.

I completely agree with a previous point in this thread that the monarchy is simply a form of institutionalised discrimination. Would you make a doctor's daughter a doctor also, simply because she happens to belong to that bloodline?

For me, the monarchy represents everything I dislike about society.
I appreciate your views but still think she is above this ,what you call discriminatory attitude. My family have suffered by this class discrimination and I dont think destroying the monarchy would remove the destructive side of inherited power. When the lords are abolished , a certain power that does influence my life without my democratic approval, then I might listen. She has no influence and her benefit outweighs any criticism that may be directed at her. Im glad to see your admission of locality has been admitted.
 
VideCorSpoon
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 06:23 pm
@xris,
Raine;131480 wrote:
I am completely opposed to our (or any) monarchy. I see it as a completely outdated institution that has no relevance to our modern society.

I don't think that monarchies are necessarily outdated. If anything, the past turmoil in coming to grips with an absolute ruler coexisting with a democratic society has produced very productive societies. Look what it has done for England. English constitutional history managed to pass some of the most prevalent reforms due in large part to the abuses and maintenance of a monarchy. In English history for example, even Oliver Cromwell admitted that an England without a King was inconceivable. Evidently, even for someone who above all cherished the will of the people and the (at the time) radical notion of a independent and sovereign parliament, he could not part with what he arguably hated the most.

Raine;131480 wrote:
I find the arguments that people use to defend the monarchy repetitive and ridiculous ( i.e "tradition" "brings money to the country"), and find it difficult to understand why people would choose to support something that is a symbol of class oppression and inequality.

I would not think that "monarchy brings money to a country" is a particularly effective argument. Although I would imagine that at some point that actually did come in handy at one point or another. A monarchy is expensive, no one can really deny that, but I think the people get their fair use out of them. Can you really put a price on national identity?

As far as monarchy being a symbol of class oppression and inequality, that may be an outdated perception. Again using England as the example here, maybe in the time of Henry the 8th or something like that would you have legitimate claim to severe abuses of the crowns privileges. But again, after the bill of rights and the appointment of William and Mary, you get a monarchy that is more in line with the head of state rather than the absolute monarchy, more for the people than the classes. Prince Albert (Queen Victoria's husband/prince consort) comes to mind as a member of monarchy who did many many things for the people of England, like housing reform, etc. He even went so far as to further remove partisanship from the royal household.
Raine;131480 wrote:
I completely agree with a previous point in this thread that the monarchy is simply a form of institutionalised discrimination.

This may be an outdated perception (granted though it could be in response to an outdated system).

Raine;131480 wrote:
Would you make a doctor's daughter a doctor also, simply because she happens to belong to that bloodline?
Raine;131480 wrote:
For me, the monarchy represents everything I dislike about society.

I would think for me it would embody what is best about a people (supposing that the monarchy in question were honorable). And this is coming from a person whose history is incredibly biased against monarchies.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2010 12:58 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;129076 wrote:
I am a monarchist, I love my Queen even if i dont serve her.

But what is the meaning of Monarchy today and is it all about yesterdays.

What makes an un crowned country better than a crowned one?

Would you rather have one or rather be without one?
Good tourist attraction? = lotsa money for your tea drinking land.
 
Camerama
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 12:13 pm
@xris,
xris;131476 wrote:
But it is personal, she represents the determination, the historic values. She joins all of us, left and right, white and black, into a feeling of love of our country.When she represents us, its for all our benefit. She maintains a certain steadfastness, through good and bad times. I cant say any monarch would instill that love, but she does. She is my queen, I love her, I have sworn in earnest, to defend her.


Excuse the lapse in response, but why would you have another accountable for you? I'm unaware of the degree to which she represents you, but it seems any general respresentation is an arrogation of individual rights. How does a constitiutional monarch represent his/her subjects? I was under the perhaps false impression that she was a figurehead. If so, excuse my ignorance. An answer is appreciated in advance.
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 01:08 pm
@Camerama,
Camerama;144114 wrote:
Excuse the lapse in response, but why would you have another accountable for you? I'm unaware of the degree to which she represents you, but it seems any general respresentation is an arrogation of individual rights. How does a constitiutional monarch represent his/her subjects? I was under the perhaps false impression that she was a figurehead. If so, excuse my ignorance. An answer is appreciated in advance.
In what way do you think she represents me? Figure heads represent the country, she represents a unity that we have, that overcomes political differences. I can stand next to my political adversary and know we stand united in the desire to do the best we can for our country, she represents that feeling , that emotion. Imagine two brothers in constant argument and a mother who will not take sides, she is our mother our country in essence. God save our queen.
 
Camerama
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 01:48 pm
@xris,
xris;144146 wrote:
In what way do you think she represents me? Figure heads represent the country, she represents a unity that we have, that overcomes political differences. I can stand next to my political adversary and know we stand united in the desire to do the best we can for our country, she represents that feeling , that emotion. Imagine two brothers in constant argument and a mother who will not take sides, she is our mother our country in essence. God save our queen.


Fair enough. She instills unity, and nationalism. But a unity grounded in ethnocentricity? Surely not nationally, but probably for some. Is the unity she imparts subjective? or objective? Does your queen diminish political fray?

I like the maternal allusion, but she remains a mother only to the state.(Barring child bearing:perplexed:) I won't say the connection is bereft of emotion, but it does lack a hereditary element. I suppose this is compensated with a historical one?

Sorry, this is from a naive stance. But would you wed the image of your queen, her predecessors and successors with England? A symbol of history? Or a symbol of politics? A symbol at all? Or a preordained figure to be "loved" unconditionally?

What assures her successor your love?
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 02:04 pm
@Camerama,
Camerama;144167 wrote:
Fair enough. She instills unity, and nationalism. But a unity grounded in ethnocentricity? Surely not nationally, but probably for some. Is the unity she imparts subjective? or objective? Does your queen diminish political fray?

I like the maternal allusion, but she remains a mother only to the state.(Barring child bearing:perplexed:) I won't say the connection is bereft of emotion, but it does lack a hereditary element. I suppose this is compensated with a historical one?

Sorry, this is from a naive stance. But would you wed the image of your queen, her predecessors and successors with England? A symbol of history? Or a symbol of politics? A symbol at all? Or a preordained figure to be "loved" unconditionally?

What assures her successor your love?
The post is there to be fulfilled, if it fails then the idea of monarchy is jeopardized. She or he should be above politics in a perceived way. If we suspect a preference, then she has failed. We dont love the individual but the concept she represents. Those who oppose her are narrow minded and have no idea of the concept she represents. She remains when all about her fumble, fall and disappoint us,she is our continuity. She could be like a living George Washington to the colonialist rebels.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 02:38 pm
@xris,
xris;144179 wrote:
The post is there to be fulfilled, if it fails then the idea of monarchy is jeopardized. She or he should be above politics in a perceived way. If we suspect a preference, then she has failed. We dont love the individual but the concept she represents. Those who oppose her are narrow minded and have no idea of the concept she represents. She remains when all about her fumble, fall and disappoint us,she is our continuity. She could be like a living George Washington to the colonialist rebels.


I think the English Queen does a god job. The Dutch Queen is OK and I think the Queen of Denmark is well respected. But I wouldn't recomment it to "new" countries. We are stuck with our checks and balkances. Typo.

In Holland we say we would choose a Oranje as President, if we ever became a Republic again.
 
froach
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 03:10 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
english royality :lol:thats joke, and shes only queen elizabeth the first of scotland, if I was to follow a royal house not that I would, lets just say the lion rampant flies in my house.

Know whats even funnier the next king of England will be King Billy:lol:is that why you like him pepijn sweep:bigsmile:
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 03:46 pm
@froach,
froach;144208 wrote:
english royality :lol:thats joke, and shes only queen elizabeth the first of scotland, if I was to follow a royal house not that I would, lets just say the lion rampant flies in my house.

Know whats even funnier the next king of England will be King Billy:lol:is that why you like him pepijn sweep:bigsmile:


Is he going to be William ^6 ?

Our "Royal" family is a bigger farce but we all play along

I do not like lions, though it;s my Name

I feel more Neptunus; God of Tsunami's & Earthquakes
Yoke. Less than Gods, more than Royalty...

Cooking i the mean Time of Greenwich -/- 60 min.

Hug to your kids !
 
froach
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 03:57 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
maybe you didn't get the humour

William III of England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Royal Standard of Scotland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

hug my kids now:nonooo:I might wake them its friday night, geez a break
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 04:30 pm
@froach,
froach;144228 wrote:
maybe you didn't get the humour

William III of England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Royal Standard of Scotland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

hug my kids now:nonooo:I might wake them its friday night, geez a break


I am just not familiar with local kings as I pretent to be.

I am counting our Billies and this is going to be Xi I Think

Laughing
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 04:38 pm
@froach,
froach;144208 wrote:
english royality :lol:thats joke, and shes only queen elizabeth the first of scotland, if I was to follow a royal house not that I would, lets just say the lion rampant flies in my house.

Know whats even funnier the next king of England will be King Billy:lol:is that why you like him pepijn sweep:bigsmile:
If you want to play comic books, why dont you sign up for the beano forum
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 04:40 pm
@froach,
froach;144228 wrote:
maybe you didn't get the humour

William III of England - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Royal Standard of Scotland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

hug my kids now:nonooo:I might wake them its friday night, geez a break
If thats the state of your humour then my advice is well recommended.
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 04:43 pm
@xris,
xris;144242 wrote:
If you want to play comic books, why dont you sign up for the beano forum


I need my Gotha guide book; any-body has a recnt edition ?
:bigsmile:
 
froach
 
Reply Fri 26 Mar, 2010 04:44 pm
@Pepijn Sweep,
hi will be william the V
 
 

 
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