How come that those who know nothing about philosophy

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Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2010 02:53 am
How come do they have brilliant marks in exams?
 
Fido
 
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2010 06:43 am
@kidvisions,
Everyone is a philosopher, but some express themselves more fluently.
 
jgweed
 
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2010 07:56 am
@kidvisions,
Perhaps there is a difference between knowing philosophy, and actually doing it, just as there is a difference between knowing a lot about poetry and actually writing beautiful stanzas.

There is a part of philosophy that can be taught, whether as history of ideas or as logic; an intellect can manipulate these concepts much as in any other academic field. There is another part of philosophy, in which calling, care and concern for the articulation of truth are vital, that cannot be taught in the same way, if it can be taught at all.

A carpenter may have the best of tools in his toolbox with some skill in using them, he may acquired the best and straightest lumber out of which to fashion objects, but still produce only dead copies of Other's tables, chairs, and cupboards.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 9 Feb, 2010 08:27 am
@jgweed,
jgweed;126407 wrote:
Perhaps there is a difference between knowing philosophy, and actually doing it, just as there is a difference between knowing a lot about poetry and actually writing beautiful stanzas.

There is a part of philosophy that can be taught, whether as history of ideas or as logic; an intellect can manipulate these concepts much as in any other academic field. There is another part of philosophy, in which calling, care and concern for the articulation of truth are vital, that cannot be taught in the same way, if it can be taught at all.

A carpenter may have the best of tools in his toolbox with some skill in using them, he may acquired the best and straightest lumber out of which to fashion objects, but still produce only dead copies of Other's tables, chairs, and cupboards.


Care for the truth implies caring about whether what you say is true. And that implies arguing for it, and taking into account counter-arguments against it. Argument is central to philosophy, or at least western philosophy. That is why, for instance, Descartes and Socrates are central to the tradition, and Nietzsche and others of his ilk are not. Descartes and Socrates (or Quine, or Wittgenstein) can hardly be accused of producing dead copies of anything. (Whatever those are). But continual interpretation of the text of some selected philosophers, is as near as producing dead copies as I care to get.
 
melonkali
 
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2010 10:13 am
@kidvisions,
kidvisions;126336 wrote:
How come do they have brilliant marks in exams?


I am SOOOOOO glad you started this thread. You see, long, long ago, YOU would have been one of those truly gifted future thinkers whom I watched quietly seething as pretenders like me aced the philosophy classes. I've always wondered how it felt to be you... Not so hot, eh?

I can't speak for all of us, but I had four tricks:
(1) an absolutely fantastic short-term memory, useful in cramming for exams,
(2) a knack for rambling on and on incoherently but eloquently,
(3) for research papers, speed-reading skills used for overkill on research, resulting in a bibliography longer than most other students' papers (which, had any professor carefully dissected it, would have betrayed an over-reliance on secondary sources while also, as the rules do allow, citing the original sources in my bibliography -- like I'd ever really read "Principia Mathematica"... yeah, right...)
(4) finally, anal-retentive attention to spelling and grammar.

While I did (and still do) have genuine interest in a few areas of "philosophy light", I was always aware of my limitations. I could never have gone very far in a category like formal logic. If any of the know-nothings you speak of can pull a decent grade in "hard" philosophy, they're above my level, and I have no explanations concerning them.

The root of the problem, at least in my case, was professors who were either careless, lazy, overworked or just merciful. There exist, potentially, exams I could never have passed. Close scrutiny of my essays and research papers couldn't have fooled Forrest Gump -- but that is understandable, as he was also acing the course!

Funny. Just the other day I came across my "Excellent!" graduate-level paper on theoretical quantum physics and Whitehead's process philosophy. That truly was my "magnum opus", but not in the usual sense of the term...

I leave you with these words of wisdom.
In voce nominus ad potentiatis sobriatum.
rebecca
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2010 11:29 am
@Fido,
Fido;126380 wrote:
Everyone is a philosopher, but some express themselves more fluently.


But not everyone is a good, or even a competent, philosopher. (Even it it were true that everyone is a philosopher). Do you think that everyone who can hum (off-tune) is a musician?
 
jgweed
 
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2010 01:18 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;126418 wrote:
. Argument is central to philosophy, or at least western philosophy. That is why, for instance, Descartes and Socrates are central to the tradition, and Nietzsche and others of his ilk are not. Descartes and Socrates (or Quine, or Wittgenstein) can hardly be accused of producing dead copies of anything. (Whatever those are). But continual interpretation of the text of some selected philosophers, is as near as producing dead copies as I care to get.


To say that Nietzsche does not argue philosophical positions, criticize other philosophers' thinking, or participate in the perennial philosophical debate seems an odd position given his influences in modern philosophy. It is his critique of earlier positions (granted in an unique manner) found in his writings that places him squarely in the philosophical continuum.

That philosophers return to the great texts of the tradition and offer new interpretations, or are "awakened from their dogmatic slumber" by a prior position as Hume did for Kant (presumably these two fit the real philosophical tradition while Nietzsche does not), seems far from the reproducing dead copies by philosophical workers writing MA theses, little old ladies presenting a paper to their reading group (naturally, to be followed by cake and coffee), or a student underlying catch phrases in his blue book to get an A.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2010 02:00 pm
@jgweed,
jgweed;126795 wrote:
To say that Nietzsche does not argue philosophical positions, criticize other philosophers' thinking, or participate in the perennial philosophical debate seems an odd position given his influences in modern philosophy. It is his critique of earlier positions (granted in an unique manner) found in his writings that places him squarely in the philosophical continuum.

That philosophers return to the great texts of the tradition and offer new interpretations, or are "awakened from their dogmatic slumber" by a prior position as Hume did for Kant (presumably these two fit the real philosophical tradition while Nietzsche does not), seems far from the reproducing dead copies by philosophical workers writing MA theses, little old ladies presenting a paper to their reading group (naturally, to be followed by cake and coffee), or a student underlying catch phrases in his blue book to get an A.


I did not say that Nietzche did not do that. Just not very well. What modern philosophy does he influence? I guess on the Continent.
Again, interpretation and investigation are different. Socrates and Descartes, to name two, did not interpret (and reinterpret) they investigated. They did philosophy. Not what is now called "criticism" in the English departments. I have read some interesting MA theses. They were not on a particular philosopher. They were on a particular problem in philosophy. And interesting doctoral theses too. What makes you think that all MA theses are on some particular philosopher? I would never have directed them.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2010 04:55 pm
@Fido,
Fido;126380 wrote:
Everyone is a philosopher, but some express themselves more fluently.


I agree. A person might object that the term loses its power when applied to everyone, but then I read your statement as a metaphor.

As to my agreement: it seems impossible not to have what can be loosely called metaphysical assumptions with which to interpret experience.
 
Twirlip
 
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2010 05:02 pm
@kennethamy,
Quote:
I guess on the Continent.
That little place off the coast of England?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 10 Feb, 2010 05:07 pm
@jgweed,
jgweed;126795 wrote:

That philosophers return to the great texts of the tradition and offer new interpretations, or are "awakened from their dogmatic slumber" by a prior position as Hume did for Kant (presumably these two fit the real philosophical tradition while Nietzsche does not), seems far from the reproducing dead copies by philosophical workers writing MA theses, little old ladies presenting a paper to their reading group (naturally, to be followed by cake and coffee), or a student underlying catch phrases in his blue book to get an A.


That's what I love about Nietzsche. He extends the turning-radius of one's mind.
The "little old ladies" want philosophy to die, so that they can mummify its corpse and make a religion/purse of it. For some, philosophy is a body of thought to be memorized and "worn" to the proper tea parties. This is what I call cultural fetishism, the dropping of those famous magical names over cucumber sandwiches (made special for Aunt Augusta).
 
sarek
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 07:51 am
@kidvisions,
Let me put forward an alternative idea. A philosopher is a free thinker. We allow our mind to wander freely in the thinkspace inside our heads. A true philosopher does more than standing on the shoulders of giants, he develops original new thoughts and ideas.
Education is not about original thought. It is about learning things that are already known. Both the questions and the answers are given and those who have the ability to learn and reproduce given recipes usually do best on tests.

This is a fundamental difference. I even believe there may be neurological differences that distinguish original thinkers from the majority of the population.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 08:11 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;126834 wrote:
I agree. A person might object that the term loses its power when applied to everyone, but then I read your statement as a metaphor.

As to my agreement: it seems impossible not to have what can be loosely called metaphysical assumptions with which to interpret experience.


I may have a lot of assumptions about cooking, but that hardly makes me a chef.
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 08:38 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;126765 wrote:
But not everyone is a good, or even a competent, philosopher. (Even it it were true that everyone is a philosopher). Do you think that everyone who can hum (off-tune) is a musician?

Well, yes...The mind is where music is made and appreciated, and the voice and ear are often flawed, so yes I do believe that music is our common possession, just as philosophy is our common profession...Few people are good at it, and few devote themselves to the knowledge of it...If you ask, people have a set of rules that guide their behavior, and these are learned as taught, of figured out on the way, but everyone has some sort of philosophy whether it is the subject of much thought, or the avoidence of thought...
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 09:05 am
@Fido,
Fido;129648 wrote:
Well, yes...The mind is where music is made and appreciated, and the voice and ear are often flawed, so yes I do believe that music is our common possession, just as philosophy is our common profession...Few people are good at it, and few devote themselves to the knowledge of it...If you ask, people have a set of rules that guide their behavior, and these are learned as taught, of figured out on the way, but everyone has some sort of philosophy whether it is the subject of much thought, or the avoidence of thought...


It seems that you're using the word "philosophy" very broadly here to mean "a way of life" or "personal outlook". But when we say someone is a philosopher, we are not merely acknowledging that they have a unique set of beliefs or outlook on life. We are saying that they study the academic discipline that is philosophy, or at the least, critically analyze or rationally investigate the world. And no, not everyone does this.

Would you consider everyone a mathematician or engineer, simply because most people have the capacity to add and subtract simple numbers?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 09:11 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;129653 wrote:
It seems that you're using the word "philosophy" very broadly here to mean "a way of life" or "personal outlook". But when we say someone is a philosopher, we are not merely acknowledging that they have a unique set of beliefs or outlook on life. We are saying that they study the academic discipline that is philosophy, or at the least, critically analyze or rationally investigate the world. And no, not everyone does this.

Would you consider everyone a mathematician or engineer, simply because most people have the capacity to add and subtract simple numbers?



One of those many cases in philosophy when a view is trivially true when vague, but clearly false when specific. Vague, but trivially true, or specific but obviously false? Fido's choice.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 09:30 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;129656 wrote:
One of those many cases in philosophy when a view is trivially true when vague, but clearly false when specific. Vague, but trivially true, or specific but obviously false? Fido's choice.


I don't see how it is true at all. The word "philosopher" is not used to mean someone that simply has a philosophy (a general outlook). Suppose my philosophy as a manager of my business is to, "Provide great service to my customers and offer the lowest prices in the industry!". Am I now a philosopher? When we say someone is a philosopher, we are clearly using philosophy in a different sense.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 09:56 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;129663 wrote:
I don't see how it is true at all. The word "philosopher" is not used to mean someone that simply has a philosophy (a general outlook). Suppose my philosophy as a manager of my business is to, "Provide great service to my customers and offer the lowest prices in the industry!". Am I now a philosopher? When we say someone is a philosopher, we are clearly using philosophy in a different sense.


Well, not if someone insists that to be a philosopher is simply to present a general way of thinking about things as does the manager. By saying it is not true, and by making the kind of distinction you make, you are, of course, making "philosopher" more specific, and thus excluding the kind of thing the manager says. But if the manager insists on using the term "philosopher" in that way, all you can say is that he has simply trivialized the term, so that nearly everyone is a philosopher in his sense. And it just becomes a kind of honorific term with not much content. People sometimes do that with all kinds of terms of praise. Like "stateman" when some people simply call any politician a "statesman". It trivializes the term "statesman", but they don't care much, even if they understand what is really going on. (It is a little like calling Heidegger a "thinker", if you see what I mean).
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 10:12 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;129668 wrote:
Well, not if someone insists that to be a philosopher is simply to present a general way of thinking about things as does the manager. By saying it is not true, and by making the kind of distinction you make, you are, of course, making "philosopher" more specific, and thus excluding the kind of thing the manager says. But if the manager insists on using the term "philosopher" in that way, all you can say is that he has simply trivialized the term, so that nearly everyone is a philosopher in his sense. And it just becomes a kind of honorific term with not much content. People sometimes do that with all kinds of terms of praise. Like "stateman" when some people simply call any politician a "statesman". It trivializes the term "statesman", but they don't care much, even if they understand what is really going on. (It is a little like calling Heidegger a "thinker", if you see what I mean).


Ah, I see. I didn't quite understand what you meant initially by trivializing a term. But you are right.

Sometimes I think being vague and misleading with language is a hobby for some people.
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 18 Feb, 2010 10:14 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;129653 wrote:
It seems that you're using the word "philosophy" very broadly here to mean "a way of life" or "personal outlook". But when we say someone is a philosopher, we are not merely acknowledging that they have a unique set of beliefs or outlook on life. We are saying that they study the academic discipline that is philosophy, or at the least, critically analyze or rationally investigate the world. And no, not everyone does this.

Would you consider everyone a mathematician or engineer, simply because most people have the capacity to add and subtract simple numbers?

When people can learn because they appreciate what they know, that it is good, and helps them to avoid the common evils of life, then they are philosophers...The same is true of math, though not necessarily so of engineering as a subject of mathematics...
We judge by the extremes, but if we say only North is North, that the extreme of North, the North Pole is North, then every where not the North Pole is South... In fact, North is not a destination, a point, but is a direction... The same is true of philosophy, that we are all engaged in it more seriously or less so, but it is no less a human pursuit shared by all of humanity... The facts seem to be that philosophy as an extreme, -is a land inhabited by losers, by those who cannot make it with normal people, who cannot maintain or flourish in relationships...Well, that is the greatest knowledge, and everyone must have some philosophy to get along with folks, so it is a common pursuit of even the most common of people...
 
 

 
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