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determinism/causation and linear time

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honestly I dont know where to put this. these are just some goofy thoughts I had, and I wondered what anyone else might have thought about it. any wild imaginings as well as any serious knowledgable replies will be gladly accepted and appreciated.

determinism depends upon causation, as I understand it. and causation depends on linear time. if there were not linear time, or the appearance of linear time, how would we be able to identify the cause of anything? the cause must precede the effect.

but some schools of thought, perhaps metaphysics or mysticism, propose that in absolute reality there is no linear time. if that is so, there is no such thing as causation. events only appear to have been caused by other events which appear to precede them-when in fact all events exist simultaneously and are taking place together...in space as well as in time. is it then that our brains are designed with the capacity to organize what we experience into linear time? can it be that we arrange all the events of our life into an order that makes sense to us after the fact? is it just for the sake of convenience?

what does this do to the notion of free will? think about what happens in a dream...do we ever make choices in a dream? or does everything just seem to happen. this doesnt necessarily mean that someone else has made the choice for us, but it may mean that choice doesnt exist, no matter how we laboriously agonize over the decisions in our lives.

what does this do to our sense of the now? if the brain cannot simultaneously experience all the events that happen to is during its existence, would it not concentrate on only one or two or three at a time? so as we sit here now thinking we are on the philosophy forum, it is only the attention of our brain relating to this particular moment, while those past and future events that are also happening are being experienced by the same brain. perhaps the awareness and the brain (include consciousness with the brain) are different things entirely. consciousness is wholly involved with the existence of the brain, but the awareness is like a telescope focused on only one segment or moment it calls 'now'. we think now that we can recall past events and not future ones, but that would be part of the organization system of linearity. it would be a serious lapse to allow the attention to become aware of future events since the method of functioning is to arrange things in linear order.. but I would imagine too that sometimes there might be lapses...leaving open the idea that we could choose to fast forward. or rerun...

@salima,

salima;114874 wrote:

honestly I dont know where to put this. these are just some goofy thoughts I had, and I wondered what anyone else might have thought about it. any wild imaginings as well as any serious knowledgable replies will be gladly accepted and appreciated.

determinism depends upon causation, as I understand it. and causation depends on linear time. if there were not linear time, or the appearance of linear time, how would we be able to identify the cause of anything? the cause must precede the effect.

but some schools of thought, perhaps metaphysics or mysticism, propose that in absolute reality there is no linear time. if that is so, there is no such thing as causation. events only appear to have been caused by other events which appear to precede them-when in fact all events exist simultaneously and are taking place together...in space as well as in time. is it then that our brains are designed with the capacity to organize what we experience into linear time? can it be that we arrange all the events of our life into an order that makes sense to us after the fact? is it just for the sake of convenience?

what does this do to the notion of free will? think about what happens in a dream...do we ever make choices in a dream? or does everything just seem to happen. this doesnt necessarily mean that someone else has made the choice for us, but it may mean that choice doesnt exist, no matter how we laboriously agonize over the decisions in our lives.

what does this do to our sense of the now? if the brain cannot simultaneously experience all the events that happen to is during its existence, would it not concentrate on only one or two or three at a time? so as we sit here now thinking we are on the philosophy forum, it is only the attention of our brain relating to this particular moment, while those past and future events that are also happening are being experienced by the same brain. perhaps the awareness and the brain (include consciousness with the brain) are different things entirely. consciousness is wholly involved with the existence of the brain, but the awareness is like a telescope focused on only one segment or moment it calls 'now'. we think now that we can recall past events and not future ones, but that would be part of the organization system of linearity. it would be a serious lapse to allow the attention to become aware of future events since the method of functioning is to arrange things in linear order.. but I would imagine too that sometimes there might be lapses...leaving open the idea that we could choose to fast forward. or rerun...

We dream we make choices, when we dream. Dreaming you make a choice is not making a choice. No more than dreaming you ride on an elephant is riding on an elephant.

@salima,

actually, i never dreamed i made choices! not that i can recall anyway...if i was dreaming now i would choose that my computer would run a lot faster. your comment posted even before i got back to the control panel from the OP! i am trying to download two files at the same time, and this comment probably wont go through until tomorrow!

i guess that's why it would be cool if everything was happening now, i could jump on over to where the thread ended and read everything now...

@salima,

salima;114878 wrote:

actually, i never dreamed i made choices! not that i can recall anyway...if i was dreaming now i would choose that my computer would run a lot faster. your comment posted even before i got back to the control panel from the OP! i am trying to download two files at the same time, and this comment probably wont go through until tomorrow!

i guess that's why it would be cool if everything was happening now, i could jump on over to where the thread ended and read everything now...

Well you do. In the sense that you dream you act in a dream.

@kennethamy,

The roots of philosophy involve the emergence into consciousness of the ideas of space and time.

Just as space may be an undivided whole vs. a matrix of bits, time may be continuous vs. a stream of separate moment bubbles.

We can't really settle on either scenario because each leaves questions only answered by the other.

The nature of the will is just another angle on the same contradiction. The self, divided from the whole, is a prerequisite for choice. In wholeness, the self is a phantom mirror reflecting all.

I knew a lady once who was plagued by the memory of having made a difficult choice. In fact she couldn't face it. The ability to live at all came to her from a scripture that says God knows the whole story of your life before you live it...

@Arjuna,

Salima:
I think the non-existence of linear time is what makes mysticism and all the wonderful mystical things in thought explicable. You seem to have your finger on it. It would easily explain things like omniscience and such. It would also throw a wrench into causality as we percieve it like you noted. It would erase causality completely or push it into the realm of everything that is was and will be is a cause being that everything that was and will be without linear time already are. On the lighter side it might also make it so that I'm my own grandpa. For that matter so are you.

@salima,

salima;114874 wrote:

It would be a serious lapse to allow the attention to become aware of future events since the method of functioning is to arrange things in linear order.. but I would imagine too that sometimes there might be lapses...leaving open the idea that we could choose to fast forward. or rerun...

If this were possible, one would expect to see cases of mental disorder in which people became aware of the future. Such people could pursue a lucrative career as prophets. But I am not aware of any such cases. :unsure:

---------- Post added 12-28-2009 at 07:17 PM ----------

salima;114878 wrote:

i guess that's why it would be cool if everything was happening now, i could jump on over to where the thread ended and read everything now...

But that would imply a higher-level linear time in which you go from not-having-read-everything to having-read-everything....

---------- Post added 12-28-2009 at 07:30 PM ----------

kennethamy;114876 wrote:

Dreaming you make a choice is not making a choice.

If you dream you are making a choice, it is not necessarily true that you are actually making a choice, but it could be contingently true. Making a choice is a possible explanation of dreaming you are making a choice. And it seems quite a plausible explanation to me. But this is ultimately a matter for psychologists to decide.

@salima,

salima;114874 wrote:

...but some schools of thought... propose that in absolute reality there is no linear time.

I'm sure some probably advocate worshiping the turnip too.

The point is, once you remove our method of learning, attaining memories and every point of understanding that we've developed over the eons (in this case, the concept of linear time), all sorts of possibilities arise; some absurd - as others have pointed out - as well as some not so absurd. I guess my question would be this: Why would you? On what basis, grounds, reason or evidence should _anyone_ believe in such a thing?

Yes, it's distinctly possible; but that's a concession, there's no reason to believe such is the case. And as such, doesn't have much relevance that I can see.

Thanks

@Khethil,

Khethil;114962 wrote:

I'm sure some probably advocate worshiping the turnip too.

Why would you? On what basis, grounds, reason or evidence should _anyone_ believe in such a thing?

Thanks

People can be persuaded to believe it for the same reason they believe many things that cannot be absolutely proven. It logically justifies what they already believe. A great deal of all thought (scientific) and otherwise is the pursuit of explaining what we already believe.

@GoshisDead,

GoshisDead;114996 wrote:

A great deal of all thought (scientific) and otherwise is the pursuit of explaining what we already believe.

I completely agree. We have motives that drive our inquiries. We want more certainty or more doubt, according to taste.

@Reconstructo,

For some reason, some people who keep fish report a common dream: the fish are floating in the air.
It's been a recurring dream for me.

Maybe on topic about dreams, but not on linear time.

@ACB,

ACB;114918 wrote:

If this were possible, one would expect to see cases of mental disorder in which people became aware of the future. Such people could pursue a lucrative career as prophets. But I am not aware of any such cases. :unsure:

---------- Post added 12-28-2009 at 07:17 PM ----------

But that would imply a higher-level linear time in which you go from not-having-read-everything to having-read-everything....

---------- Post added 12-28-2009 at 07:30 PM ----------

If you dream you are making a choice, it is not necessarily true that you are actually making a choice, but it could be contingently true. Making a choice is a possible explanation of dreaming you are making a choice. And it seems quite a plausible explanation to me. But this is ultimately a matter for psychologists to decide.

Dreaming that you are making a choice is no more making a choice, than is dreaming you are in India riding on the back of an elephant is being in India riding on the back of an elephant. And your riding on the back of an elephant in India is not more a plausible explanation of your dreaming you are doing that than that making a choice is a plausible explanation of dreaming you are making a choice.

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