Ah, I see what you are trying to do. You are trying to trivialize matters, right? I do not concern myself with such trivial pursuits nor do concern myself with those who do. It is a waste of effort. Nice try Ken, you know better than that. I'll let you figure that one out on your own. Do with your time what you will as long as you don't waste mine in that process. Ha! Have a ball, go for it, whatever fancy's you. When I asked you to be specific, I thought you would be more serious; I was wrong.

William

---------- Post added 10-31-2009 at 09:49 AM ----------

Ken, on second thought, I make you a proposition. You tell me why you think the frying pan is here and we will go from there. How's that?

Why, because I took it off the shelf to fry eggs. But why would you find that interesting is more than I can imagine.

Sometimes, the trivial answers are the true answers. I would rather have a true and trivial answer than a false and oh so profound answer. But, I suppose tastes differ. In philosophy some prefer profoundity over truth.

There's nothing profound about thinking about X and forming the concept of X in your mind.

I still don't see what kind of point you're trying to make.

But I did not say there was. I was answering William's post about trivialization.

You were ignored, yet you persisted with the following:



I gave you an answer of which you responded:



I gave you another answer, and then you became insulting with the following innocuous statement of which I gave you another chance (the second thought) to make some sense as to what you were trying to say



Then Zetherin offer to step in to help, to which you offered the follow retort:









Ken, you trivial curiosity indicates you disinterest in the subject and the depth of the OP. I will admit it is not for everyone. Your attempt to trivialize it is a bit offensive, but I did give you the benefit of the doubt in hopes there would be a deeper meaning to what you were trying to state. It seems though you just have too much time on you hands and have nothing else to do but venture where you shouldn't or not equipped to go. Unlike sometime sun, who has devoted a lot of thought to what truth is.

I do not consider philosophy or the search for truth a game or a subject I will get an A on in some academic venue. I am very serious about the subject and if you want to offer such as you have, then please do it in another thread, not this one. Please play your games elsewhere

William

I gave you another answer, and then you became insulting

I was?

You still have not given me even one example of conceptualization. And neither has anyone else. To be passionate about the truth is admirable. But to make sense is also admirable.

Ken, then I suggest you create a thread and discuss ideas and where they come from if you do not agree with the one I offered. It is by those very means I explained to you is what allowed me to offer what I did in the OP. If you disagree, then create a forum to discuss what others have to offer as to what they think conceptualization is and let them offer their opinion. This thread is not about where ideas come from and I will not let it go down that path. If you disagree, as I ask you to do in being more specific, that was meant to be in reference to what I did say in the OP, and no where in it did I mention the word conceptualization and what it means.

Now you are free to select any part of what I did say that may be confusing to you and I will address it further. If not, then just leave it alone. You can wallow in profundity all you want if that is your pleasure. Me, I like simplicity. The OP was amazingly simple for me to understand as I hoped it would be for others; though I knew some would perhaps disagree and that was what I was hoping they would do so I could explain further. Only one as taken the time to do that and I have answered most of his interpretations of what I did say as he understood it.

I suggest you read and take notes on what I did say and address them if you are truly interested in the truth and what I offer is a way to get there.

William

But, still not one example of conceptualization? That's very specific.

If you think about the concept of a chair, this is conceptualizing a chair. That is one example of conceptualizing.

What in the world are you not understanding?

Have you followed the link I gave you earlier in order to better understand what people mean when they say they are conceptualizing something? You've honestly never heard this word before? Well, it is a word, and it's pretty common.

Oh yes. I have heard the word before (many times on this forum). If I think about the concept of a chair, then I am conceptualizing a chair? Well, I understand what it is to think about the concept of a chair. But are you sure that is what it means to conceptualize a chair. I thought that conceptualizing a chair is create the concept of a chair, or something of the sort. I asked how this is done.

kennethamy;
'What does it mean to conceptualize something?'

(meaning) mean; (PAST AND PAST PARTICIPLE meant) 1 to express or intend to express, show or indicate. 2 to intend; to have as a purpose: didn't 'mean' any harm. 3 to be serious and sincere about: he 'means' what he says. 4 to be important to (the stated degree); to represent: you approval 'means' a lot to me. 5 to entail necessarily; to result in; to involve: war 'means' hardship. 6 (be meant for something) to be destined to it: she was 'meant' for stardom. 7 to foretell or portend: cold cloudless evenings 'mean' overnight frost. - mean well to have good intentions.
middle (i put this for it has basis for all thing becoming as medium, middle as close to prefection or at the least the least controversial), middle the safest place to be and extend from or towards.

(concept) conceptualize; to form a concept of, a notion; an abstract or general idea. (from Latin conceptum)

something; 1 a thing not known or not stated: take 'something' to eat. 2 an amount or number not known or not stated: 3 a person or thing of importance: make 'something' of oneself/ 4 a certain truth or value: there is 'something' in what you say. 5 colloq. an impressive person or thing: that meal was real;y 'something!' adv. to some degree; rather: the garden looks 'something' like a scrapyard- something of a .. a..to some extent: she's 'something' of a local celebrity.
(not a nothin)
Please I do not do this to patronise.

What does it mean to conceptualize soemthing?

It means we have some degree of power over the search for an answer, any answer as there are more than the questions?/concepts we (alize) realize, raise, bring to life.
So it is realization then? and what is realization? not quite real or not quite not real, a persoanl awareness.
Aware of what?
Whatever is consensus for quest.
Answer in the asking.
What doe sit mean though?
to have configuration (from perception of imagination, imagination first)
What doe sit mean? that we have this ability?
What is the meaning of life?
What is the meaning of my life?
What is your/my search?
What does it mean to search, to look, up, out, in?
It means we are without answer (conclusion, far from imagination) and we know/recognise this lack, or journey untrod or quest unwon (as in question).
Trying to understand ourselves in realtion/through conjunction to anything everything else. Curiousity?
It is with concepts, to conceptualize, to concern is to speculate to communicate rather than just investigate.
The root rather than the fruit.
To ask the question, what is left over or out? trying to give method in answering rather than just the finaaaaaaal tally.
A concept is a query question quest. search.
A answer is an investigation fulfilled even if just leading onto the next unfulfilled.
The conceptualized is the law by which we understand equate weight measure the unanswerable, or just one step away.

Personal; just as in the imagination though the similarity may end there for imagination preceeds conceptualization, but without the first one cannot the latter.

Your concern, Your meaning.

I think you are asking something that may rightly in its (your) lofty aspirations/insperations have no answer (that we are ready for; hope)
but in what it means to have will and come to try and understand the root of thought by its very existence. (we weren't aware to start with) think about that in the scheme of what we recon ourselves to be today (we weren't with will to start with).
And what relation therethere is between/betwix living, breathing, thinking, growing, being? (and so many more things to conceptualize) rational.

The great unanswerables, but for this quest (doomed, salvation) you fight and despair to uncover as much as cover up.
Evolution of species or self? Where does your question come from, what do you conceptualize yourself into being (and out of being by the lack of room) I dont know (how) you but by the first (species), so you must see for yourself all else before i can see your self.
We choose how we see ourselves first and then by how much as how we see others.

I would be interested in meeting this king of yours and ultimately mine i suppose. However i do not believe that any king or God could would or should do what you describe, God needs to bring understanding if any king has the right to judge. I see god King as Plan Design so anything, no matter how horrific must have meaning, it will be lighted with the Divine and all will know peace because all will know the reason behind the plan, the truth shall be shown by this light and the lies shall be shown truth. God will beintention and will prove this intention through Divne light and exposure.


Work it. Then rest shall come naturally.



I understand your frustration but as with the term word use of 'God' 'mankind' is not male, but i can understand your gripe, people are relively simple and take things at face value rather than inspection.



But to become free there is power involved and some having been chained up all there lives and even by themselves must exhib it power of control so as to remain to be free.



They are to judge if one infringes upon anothers liberty, the balance comes when one does not concern then selves with anothers business that is of no concern to another, civil liberties are the thing we are all entitled too, but it says that we need permission to be about and abound as our selves.
while maintaing that we are.



But people more offten than not with all exteriors in play need to fight to be themsleves to remain clean i world just ready to scuff your shoes, let alone not let you have any.

'We all like (accede) too much to be coerced, lied too, seduced or manipulated.'


All are sins right? And we have a battle daily not to fall down and be buried where most others are.
Take plastic surgery, this is subliminal mind funk that says one is not as good because they do not conform (really they do but even conformity has been distroted) they would be better if they mutliated themselves and are convinced by media and meeting of this world that lies coerses and seduces, and all because we want a bigger dick or boods so as to have more of that frivelous stuff which is empty and full of sin.
We want to be beuatiful people (naturally) but somewhere along the line we decided (or was decided for us) that it was by a criteria that is unrealistic and damaging. But you still come out of it with more when really something has been taken and lost.
you sai dit best with 'You allow them to convince you of something you dont need that they have, coercing you to think differently, like them, abandoning that which you are, and you become lost and a slave in that process.' But you see we chose in these cases to become a slave, or were we just hoodwinked. No choice was available?

'Perfect being conception and destruction perhaps?'

perfect at the start as well as at the end. it is the invbetween that troubles and conflicts. To destroy leaves room for new growth, not all destruction need be for waste.



Or we force ourselves. Fighting the urge to mention devils here.


We have in our nature (which may all be led and leading without destination) both good and bad, sinner and saint. The battle is with the part of you that some might say naturally want to destroy you. From the inside out. Or could be as much the outside in.


No because i am not under the delusion to think i can meet God in the life that takes steps to travel and be anywhere. God will communicate but God will not meet you in this life. Well some lucky few of God may have but this is where the sainthood come in, we greet God we find God we can experience God but we do not meet God. (closer as in footing/proximity).
Yet.
We aren't that far away so as to not know God is there. waiting.
We need to be dead to fully know and understand encapsulate God.
Which i wonder sometimes if those who have not died and come back have not for a moment come closer than anywho have gone through there life without death incident.

Pontius Pilate asks "What is truth?" Jesus gives no answer.
Truth is a powerful notion and everyone assumes there is such a thing as "truth" even though reason and experience both indicate we can only possess an approximation to it.
This seems to be a thread about religionl not about truth and they are definitely not the same concept.

Pilate did not ask Jesus. Jesus was not present at the time. The line (from Bacon's essay, "On Truth") is: "What is truth? asked jesting Pilate, but would not stay for answer".

Even if it is true that we have only an approximation to truth (which I doubt is true) there must be truth to which we have only an approximation. It does not follow that because we have only an approximation to truth that there is no truth. Our rulers may give us only an approximation of a yard in length, but that does not mean there is no such thing as a yard in length, does it?

(Why do you place the word truth into quotes?)

Where did I say that? If that is what you understood me to say, please relate to me what it was that I said that led you to believe that? Thanks



It is only a lie, it it can be proven false. That is what the truth is about when you become to understand all the ramifications and repercussions of the consequences of holding to or wanting more than you need or convinced that you need. Temptation is not inherent in us. Without that, we would utilize all we do have to it fullest until a need arises. It will serendipitously come to us from others once harmony is in place.



All have left their footprints, but to find a pristine one among all the tracks that have troddened over them is indeed precarious. Even those who efforted to espouse a truth walk on tiptoes to escape detection and most talked in rhyme and riddle in hopes that someday it would be understood and translated truthfully.



We can weather the fair breeze, it's the storms, unfortunately we have created, that cause us to drift off course.



Complacence is a place of no growth. It is stagnating yet it is a temporary safe haven. Many, so many, fear to venture from the protection of the cocoons they have created for themselves. In the beginning it can be surmised to be a just state, but we have gone far beyond that now. We do now know better.



Sun, I have no idea of what you meant in what you just said. Please clarify or use other words. Thank you.



Too much time? I can't imagine that? Unless one is so complacent to the point of stagnation. If this is what you mean, then I totally agree.



We do have much to purge and that is that malignant knowledge we have forced on one another of that we assumed to be true. Once all are allowed to venture, safely without threat or fear, then and only then will we begin to travel onward in positive direction serendipitously, freely exchanging with one another the gifts and talents we have in a collective unity never before in our existence.



What is a costume, but a mask one is afraid to come out from behind for fear of so much recognition. Too much scrutiny is not a good thing under present conditions with so many convinced to believe what we deem as value, that has none. What is valuable is abundant, yet we think if it is rare, it has value. What a tragic mistake in all measures. For what good is a fountain of gold if no water flows through it.



Ha, you think he is different than yours? Perhaps that is a just statement considering the reality and confusion we have created. Will it always be that way. I think not. We will come to an accord...............someday as we become to understand we all made of he same stuff but of one root; all different but the same, nevertheless. That is the remarkable thing.



There is no such thing as an empty space. It is only empty from our view point. Just because we can't see it, something still is there. Like I have mention in another thread we have spent billions and billions on efforting to find the smallest and we keep finding more. Such a wasting effort, that is; and an expensive one. There could be a good that can be derived from it. But if we look to history, if any anything, and what we have learned from that, god only know what could happen if we use it foolishly and unwisely.

.

What is an idle player? One sitting on bench in mediocrity? He is not playing, he is a burden forced to be idle by those who have the means to do so, engaging those they feel will serve "their" purpose better. Yes, there is evil in that. But that, again, is how it has always been. Should it be that way, always? Let's, for all our sakes............hope not?



What is concentrating but using energy we are forced to use in an effort to survive. We have all the energy we will ever need and it will come naturally. The more we concentrate, through ignorance, the smaller we become as we expell more energy depleting ourselves of that energy that is us..................and we die. We literally burn up and that is the hell of it. Perhaps we should think more conservatively and less liberally. That is hard to imagine for even those words have been altered and change to protect the guilty and have various erroneous definitions further confusing what we deem to be true.



Yes, the truth is in us, if that is what you mean. I agree. The truth shines in the light of day as we become to recognize that sun/son in us we will sleep peacefully in that darkness of night and dream of better things to come, exuberantly anticipating their arrival and arise fresh to meet that morning sun.



Ha, we don't lose it we just have been off course, that's all. You can't lose something that has always been their and will continue to be. That is just a notion of the fearful as they fear that which is not known to them as others would like them to think. There, sadly to say, is a profit in that. What a shame that is.



If you mean fresh as not being stale, yes. The staleness has died and so rotten's, born again as new fruit that will nourish us all if we allow it to grow, freely unencumbered by the past we force upon it to satisfy our unjust desserts.



Why do you search for something that is already there. Perhaps because you do not recognize it, huh? Could it be because others have tried to force what they deem as true on you? Is that what sharing is? I think not. That's how slaves are made from masters who think they know all there is to know and have the means through deprivation to force it on others who have lessor means. As we believe everything has it's price, when all should be free for the asking. If we were all so polite, it would be a different world. A much better world and it is time we came to that realization and the reality it will build before we rotten to the core and begin again. Now you should realize that has many levels as we go to sleep and rise, and the night follows day and as we die and are reborn. Let's just hope it does not occur en mass to us all. Of course, it would be of no consequence to the universe per se, but it would be a catastrophe for us.



It depends on how we respond to the ability that is us. You know, responsibility. If we were able to respond, freely, on all that which is imposed upon us, all would be so responsible. It is when we are not allowed, consequences come into play and truth is maligned stacking the odds in favor of those who have the means to do so who profit from the battle that results.



What is it that makes you say that? Because we die? Is that it? Could it be, as some say, we were born in sin? How could that possibly be? Perhaps we were just ignorant to what life is all about and all it has to offer? Could that be it? It sounds reasonable, to me, that is. I am and that is all that I am (to take a little from Popeye, ha!). I can be no other, yet I can learn from others if not so ordered to do so. It will come naturally if it is complimentary to me and I will accept it without condition with no effort whatsoever on my part.



Sun, the words you use and there fusion, no wonder, the confusion.
If you understood you are eternal and only the body is mortal, you would not work so hard and covet (hold) to it so. Work is that labor in it's many manifestations that exhausts that body and all it represents, that prematurely sends it to the grave. How long the body is design to last is not known as it is the quality of that life that is the most important, not the quantity of it. Once you agree that you are eternal, none of it truly matters and will ease the work you do and that which is forced on you to do for others. That will align the mind, body and soul and thus will unite them in unison as we come to realize we are the sun/son/one and the part we are in it all mutually, efficiently, complimentary, cooperatively and continually for eternity. So, I ask you Sun, what's the rush? So take a load off, calm down, chill, be yourself, live in the moment, take it easy, don't be in such a hurry, listen to yourself, treat yourself kindly; it it will come to you as it will not as you will it, but when you are ready for it. Not a second to soon or too late, but just at the right moment. That's just how it is. You have heard that all your life; it's got to mean something, don't you think?




It's difficult to understand what you mean here. Please reiterate, but differently, if you don't mind and thanks. You see Sun, nothing is mortal for nothing ever ends. It always was and will forever be. Can we prove that, at our current level? Not by a long shot, a very long shot. It is not ours to question that, but our faith to believe it that it is so.



To figure out God, I think not. Never did I say that only that he was a friend, that is all. God, me? Sure, but only a small part. I do not concern myself with all that is god; I could not understand that and it would indeed drive me insane. Been there, done that. I don't wish to take that trip again and it is my wish to help others who are on that path. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil..............". I know exactly what that means. It is so sad others don't. But they will, someday. For that is the way it is and no one can change that no matter how hard they try other----wise.



For me, perhaps it was once that way; but no more. I find no comfort in misery nor will I tolerate those wish to share theirs with me who force theirs on me. They must reach that on their own, but for the asking I will offer what I can that will help, if I can and I will. That is what love is all about and then some.



You have no choice in the matter. He is there whether you realize it or not. He is you, but you are not he, you see.

Sun, that's about all for now. I have offered much for you to consider.
Let's give it a rest........for now.

Your friend,
William