science proves an after life

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xris
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:40 am
Sorry to be misleading but i pondered on the thought, what if science did prove that there was another life after death. What would be the consequences for all of us? How would we react to such an enormous revelation and in reality should we know for certain?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 05:52 am
@xris,
I think you need to be a little more specific because I can fathom about a dozen ways or so that the after life could consist of but how I would respond to them are drastically different for each. So instead of making a five thousand word response to this question (and yes I can), did you have something specific in mind?
 
Teena phil
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:02 am
@xris,
The details would depend on the afterlife, but regardless of what it is, it would certainly make dying more appealing/interesting.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:14 am
@xris,
xris;92936 wrote:
Sorry to be misleading but i pondered on the thought, what if science did prove that there was another life after death. What would be the consequences for all of us? How would we react to such an enormous revelation and in reality should we know for certain?


I'll bite.

Well, it'd likely depend on what the nature of that next life was discovered to be. Assuming it's a positive condition (wherein at least the consciousness continued), I'd think it a good thing on the whole - with perhaps some bad side effects. [INDENT]On the one hand a whole lot of friction caused by this lingering question for humanity would be alleviated; having now answered the question as well as finding a good answer.

On the other hand, our lives now might likely take on a different hue; it becomes quasi-disposable since "I'm going to live on anyway". I don't know how pervasive this could be; somewhere between not at all and horribly-widespread. Who knows - I think it a possible downside, is all.
[/INDENT]Again, depends on what was discovered; I find the whole possibility quite fascinating.

Good question, thanks
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:16 am
@Teena phil,
I wont be specific, only that science proved that, lets say nde experiences were validated and that the "I" can leave the body.

---------- Post added 09-23-2009 at 07:23 AM ----------

Its not that easy when you think about it. Your whole attitude about life could change, even the most devout are never really sure of the outcome of death. Would we be more religious, not knowing what lied beyond death? would we be less careful in our attention to our safety? Would our ethics improve for fear of punishment. If you think about it do we want to know?
 
Khethil
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:24 am
@xris,
xris;92947 wrote:
Its not that easy when you think about it. Your whole attitude about life could change, even the most devout are never really sure of the outcome of death. Would we be more religious, not knowing what lied beyond death? would we be less careful in our attention to our safety? Would our ethics improve for fear of punishment. If you think about it do we want to know?


Yea, this is absolutely true - again, I think the "what" in this discovery is paramount. In such a big realization, even the most minute details (that might speak to our continuing condition) would have a HUGE bearing on how we react to it.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:37 am
@Khethil,
If this is true, do people like me who feel its possible really believe or are we just having those wishful thoughts ? It also gives us the other reasoning, did the great engineer design it so, so that it was not possible to find out, knowing the consequences? In reality I don't really want to know....Dont jump...Why?...ummmm...
 
Khethil
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 06:47 am
@xris,
xris;92950 wrote:
If this is true, do people like me who feel its possible really believe or are we just having those wishful thoughts


This is THE question... I don't know

I once thought I did, but nowadays I have to give it the ghost on trying to understand why people believe the way they do. I'd hazard a guess that most of us likely don't understand every nuance as to how we've arrived at <this> or <that> emotionally-loaded position - since so much of it happens beneath the surface.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 07:02 am
@Khethil,
I always get worried when men of great faith spend so much money keeping themselves alive, are they keeping some great secret from us?

I find it fascinating these little bits of tantalising evidence, that are never quite conclusive, but itches at your credibility into the spirit world. Do we search out these occurrences, or do they knock on our door and then run away as soon as we look at them.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 07:11 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
If this is true, do people like me who feel its possible really believe or are we just having those wishful thoughts?


You're just having wishful thoughts. It's more than likely the conscious self-awareness you're experiencing is a phenomenon of the brain, and once you die, it stops. There was, is, and never will be an "I" to live on.

Just thinking about this logically for a moment: Just what "you" would "live on"? The one five minutes before your death? The one two years before? The identities we have are only understood in social context, and more importantly, they're everchanging. You aren't the same person you were five minutes ago or will be five minutes later. Not to mention, memories are known to be stored in the brain, and without the brain, one cannot speak of memories. An afterlife doesn't make sense because of that fact alone.

Then we could begin talking about those with mental illnesses, such as extreme retardation. What "you" lives on for these people after death? Are they just mindless neanderthals in the afterlife, too? Actually, what about neanderthals, what about the multitude of other creatures that we consider to have conciousness? Do these other creatures with semantic capacities far less mature than ours have after lives - even those who can't store many memories and have limited self-awareness? What about alzheimer's patients - when they die, does their after life consist of the memories they used to have? What about stillborns? All very confusing, so many questions to ask.

Any idea of an afterlife is wishful thinking, my friend. Cute, to be sure, but fictitious.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 07:22 am
@Zetherin,
Oh my, this was a philosophical look at the consequences not the preachings of a defined truth. Sure, you just may be right but your arguments are earth bound and with little thought of the possible. You don't convince me or yourself , its just brave words from a sceptic who clings to a certainty, he has to keep repeating.

Just one thing ,the memories of childhood that you have forgotten, did they, do they exist?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 07:38 am
@xris,
xris wrote:

Just one thing ,the memories of childhood that you have forgotten, did they, do they exist?


Even if I can't remember my memories at the moment, it's possible they're still stored in my memory. Through certain practices I could go about remembering things I didn't even know I had stored! However, If I was struck in the head with a baseball bat and developed amnesia, it's likely I may never recover all of my memory. Similarly, if I developed alzheimer's, or just... got old. Gone, another lost memory, never to be found. It can never be found because, no, it doesn't exist anymore.

Quote:

Sure, you just may be right but your arguments are earth bound and with little thought of the possible.


Actually, I'm trying to only consider the possible. An after life makes absolutely no sense from where I sit. I'm not trying to be negative, believe me. I love my consciousness, and I'm certainly not a nihilist. But there's nothing that points to this consciousness "living on" after my physical death.

Oh, and I never stated this was a "defined truth". I've just tried to logically consider this idea many times in the past and have concluded that it's a faery tale.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 07:48 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;92963 wrote:
Even if I can't remember my memories at the moment, it's possible they're still stored in my memory. Through certain practices I could go about remembering things I didn't even know I had stored! However, If I was struck in the head with a baseball bat and developed amnesia, it's likely I may never recover all of my memory. Similarly, if I developed alzheimer's, or just... got old. Gone, another lost memory, never to be found. It can never be found because, no, it doesn't exist anymore.



Actually, I'm trying to only consider the possible. An after life makes absolutely no sense from where I sit. I'm not trying to be negative, believe me. I love my consciousness, and I'm certainly not a nihilist. But there's nothing that points to this consciousness "living on" after my physical death.

Oh, and I never stated this was a "defined truth". I've just tried to logically consider this idea many times in the past and have concluded that it's a faery tale.
If your objections on the after life are just on the grounds of gathered memory being lost , ill ask again was you ever a young child? Memories don't maketh the man.

The point of believing in the possibility of another dimension, do they have to be described to give them credibility? This debate was really about how we would react to such a notion, if proven.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 07:57 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
If your objections on the after life are just on the grounds of gathered memory being lost , ill ask again was you ever a young child? Memories don't maketh the man.


What maketh the man, then? It seems to me our memories and experiences have much to do with who we are. What is the constituent of "us" that could even potentially "live on"?

Quote:

The point of believing in the possibility of another dimension, do they have to be described to give them credibility? This debate was really about how we would react to such a notion, if proven.


You can't just make up some fantastical scenario, tell people to assume it true, ask their reaction, and then call it philosophy. It's not.

Until you give me some reason to even consider an after life is possible, I have nothing to consider, and I have no clue how anyone could participate in this thread. Instead of commenting sarcastically regarding the courageous nature of my rhetoric and making me out to be some bitter sceptic, why not give me something to consider? Something that could spur a philosophical discussion. Something that could make the idea of an after life possible.
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 08:06 am
@Zetherin,
I asked did your early childhood exist, you appear not to want to answer.


If a scientist tried to give you a theory on parallel universes would you want a description of those universes? to consider their possibility.

You invent an after life that would suit your views, anything you want,you decide. BUT then tell me of the consequences of your invention.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 08:15 am
@xris,
xris wrote:

I asked did your early childhood exist, you appear not to want to answer.


I thought I did answer? Did my childhood exist? Yes. Do I have memories of my childhood? Yes. What's your point?

Quote:

If a scientist tried to give you a theory on parallel universes would you want a description of those universes? to consider their possibility.



I wouldn't care for a description of the parallel universes but instead a thorough explanation of how there could be parallel universes. Likewise, I'd like an explanation of how there could be an afterlife - any afterlife. This is a philosophy forum, not a movie theater. In movie theaters I allow myself to accept science fiction in an effort to be entertained. Here, I want some kind of logical explanation. Though, I am often entertained.

Quote:

You invent an after life that would suit your views, anything you want,you decide. BUT then tell me of the consequences of your invention.


This isn't philosophy. This sounds like a creative writing exercise and should most definitely not be in the philosophy for science subforum. You've already misled everyone by making the title "science proves an after life", now you're asking me to conjure some idea of an afterlife for fun? This should go in general discussion, if anything.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 23 Sep, 2009 08:50 am
@xris,
I agree with Zeth, my first post was going to be about how this topic is being rehashed from the earlier one but I changed it at the last minute. Instead of "Can science prove the existence of life after death." it became "science proves an after life." But in reality you haven't really done anything different from the first thread. You only make the question change a little by asking what would you do if it were true? It is nothing more than a hypothetical question so all you can really get are hypothetical answers.

I would stand before the pink elephant and proclaim that I have never eaten peanut butter. He would of course tell me I am lying. My reply would be then to say that I had never willingly eaten peanut butter in hopes to offend the great pink elephant. Then he would strike me again and dismiss my comment as again nonfactual. Noticing my failure to appeal to his pinkness I will make the statement to never eat peanut butter again. That too fails because he informs me that I will never have an opportunity to uphold that vow. Then I say to his greatness that I just fulfilled the vow! Catching him in a contradiction he is forced to place me back into the world of the living so that my vow can once again be tested and not undo the universe with a simple contradiction. What happens in that next life time? I eat peanut butter...
 
xris
 
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 03:03 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;92972 wrote:
I thought I did answer? Did my childhood exist? Yes. Do I have memories of my childhood? Yes. What's your point?



I wouldn't care for a description of the parallel universes but instead a thorough explanation of how there could be parallel universes. Likewise, I'd like an explanation of how there could be an afterlife - any afterlife. This is a philosophy forum, not a movie theater. In movie theaters I allow myself to accept science fiction in an effort to be entertained. Here, I want some kind of logical explanation. Though, I am often entertained.



This isn't philosophy. This sounds like a creative writing exercise and should most definitely not be in the philosophy for science subforum. You've already misled everyone by making the title "science proves an after life", now you're asking me to conjure some idea of an afterlife for fun? This should go in general discussion, if anything.
No one has knowledge of their early childhood, no one, so did any of our childhoods exist, memory does not maketh the man. Amnesia ? does that prove the character of a person changes just because he has no memory of his past? i dont think so

I'm not trying to prove the existence of an after life, I'm proposing a question for you to examine, is that too hard for you? If you don't want to answer a hypothetical question don't answer it, no ones making you.

How have I mislead you? was it that easy?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 03:23 am
@xris,
xris;93250 wrote:
No one has knowledge of their early childhood, no one, so did any of our childhoods exist, memory does not maketh the man. Amnesia ? does that prove the character of a person changes just because he has no memory of his past? i dont think so

I'm not trying to prove the existence of an after life, I'm proposing a question for you to examine, is that too hard for you? If you don't want to answer a hypothetical question don't answer it, no ones making you.

How have I mislead you? was it that easy?


I have a theory as to why early childhood memories are so infrequent. It has to do with an emotional connection to the experience. It seems to me that the more emotional an experience is, the more likely it is to be remembered. If there is very little or no emotional connection to an experience then it isn't remembered.

We don't remember every minute of every day and there seems to be some way in which memories form, and I think that is related to one's emotional state at the time.

So perhaps during early childhood your emotional connection to your experiences is far less and so memory formation is also reduced.
 
xris
 
Reply Thu 24 Sep, 2009 03:24 am
@Krumple,
Krumple;92982 wrote:
I agree with Zeth, my first post was going to be about how this topic is being rehashed from the earlier one but I changed it at the last minute. Instead of "Can science prove the existence of life after death." it became "science proves an after life." But in reality you haven't really done anything different from the first thread. You only make the question change a little by asking what would you do if it were true? It is nothing more than a hypothetical question so all you can really get are hypothetical answers.

I would stand before the pink elephant and proclaim that I have never eaten peanut butter. He would of course tell me I am lying. My reply would be then to say that I had never willingly eaten peanut butter in hopes to offend the great pink elephant. Then he would strike me again and dismiss my comment as again nonfactual. Noticing my failure to appeal to his pinkness I will make the statement to never eat peanut butter again. That too fails because he informs me that I will never have an opportunity to uphold that vow. Then I say to his greatness that I just fulfilled the vow! Catching him in a contradiction he is forced to place me back into the world of the living so that my vow can once again be tested and not undo the universe with a simple contradiction. What happens in that next life time? I eat peanut butter...
Dont you get a simple question? I'm not claiming to prove anything. Why is it so difficult for you to envisage an imaginary scenario? like I said, if its beyond your imagination, don't answer.

---------- Post added 09-24-2009 at 04:26 AM ----------

Krumple;93251 wrote:
I have a theory as to why early childhood memories are so infrequent. It has to do with an emotional connection to the experience. It seems to me that the more emotional an experience is, the more likely it is to be remembered. If there is very little or no emotional connection to an experience then it isn't remembered.

We don't remember every minute of every day and there seems to be some way in which memories form, and I think that is related to one's emotional state at the time.

So perhaps during early childhood your emotional connection to your experiences is far less and so memory formation is also reduced.
The claim was that we are our memeory, without memory we dont exist. My reply was explaining we loose most of our memory, does that make us less than we are?
 
 

 
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