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Tue 7 Jul, 2009 01:09 pm
Hi all,
This is from personal experiences, so take it for what it is worth:
We are taught in school that there is a right answer and a wrong answer. This is training for being involved in society where there are hierarchies of power (e.g. corporations, law, universities, military, religion, etc.), and one needs to learn that whether you feel it is right or wrong, you do it anyway. In other words, schools teach to obey authority. This is fine.
However, the notion that there is a Right and Wrong, while valuable within a given group, since it promotes cohesiveness by obeying the same authority, does present some unintended consequences in personal relationships.
However, not all relationships have a presumed hierarchy - e.g. relationships between friends, family, informal social group, etc. When someone brings these notions of right and wrong into these kind of groups, there is often conflicts. The one, that I have found most uncomfortable in my life is conflicts within my own family.
Here, within my family, one gains respect by respecting different notions of right and wrong. Sometimes there views may be 180 degrees. Sometimes, 1 degree. It varies. But to attempt to impose a right and wrong in all cases, often does lead to some severe conflict. This seems to be most often true in the areas of: a) how to raise children b) how to handle money c) how to practice religion or similar.
So, for me, I recognize the fundamental value of establishing right and wrong within groups (they are often called rules), but I understand there is a difference between a value judgment that exists with intention of establishing hierarchy of power, and value judgments that are individually and subjectively embraced depending upon ones own personal experiences. The result is, in my case, much less intense arguing (some call it fighting), and much more listening and discussion.
FWIW.
Rich
@richrf,
I'd agree with you Rich, for the most part.
I think as we grow, we realize that what's been defined for us as Right or Wrong isn't really either. It's this discovery, and the subsequent search for understanding, that epitomizes an introspective adult. The further we go down this road; however, the more we descend into doubt as well as increased perspective. Taken too far, all things become relative...
Good points
@richrf,
richrf;75676 wrote:The result is, in my case, much less intense arguing (some call it fighting), and much more listening and discussion.
I'm glad when engineers disagree they don't just hold hands and cuddle each other. They realize that either the span is 1,000ft or 2,000ft (or some other length) and that there is no room for "opinion".
I notice that most of the hand holding speculation comes after the real work is done.
@Khethil,
Khethil;75688 wrote:I'd agree with you Rich, for the most part.
I think as we grow, we realize that what's been defined for us as Right or Wrong isn't really either. It's this discovery, and the subsequent search for understanding, that epitomizes an introspective adult. The further we go down this road; however, the more we descend into doubt as well as increased perspective. Taken too far, all things become relative...
Good points
Hi there Khethil,
I would agree with you that people seek something firm to stand on. Something that they know is Right. It helps. When everything becomes relative then there doesn't seem to be a firm foundation to stand on.
I find my self moving back and forth. I don't think there is a constant in my life. I look for the right golf swing, the right tennis swing, the right way to stretch, the right food to eat ... etc. But at the same time, I am aware that what is Right for me, if there is such a thing, most certainly may not be Right for others. To take into account the individual .... it helps minimize the some of the bigger potential conflicts in life.
Thanks again for your comments.
Rich
---------- Post added 07-07-2009 at 03:11 PM ----------
Satan;75690 wrote:I'm glad when engineers disagree they don't just hold hands and cuddle each other. They realize that either the span is 1,000ft or 2,000ft (or some other length) and that there is no room for "opinion".
I notice that most of the hand holding speculation comes after the real work is done.
Engineers don't disagree .... ???? Hmmm .. are you sure you are right. They do, and most heatedly. However, there are managers, who are suppose to make the final decisions on what is Right. And most of the time, though not always, they do.
Rich
@richrf,
richrf;75691 wrote:Engineers don't disagree .... ???? Hmmm .. are you sure you are right.
Work on your reading comprehension. I didn't write that. What I wrote was:
Quote:I'm glad when engineers disagree they don't just hold hands and cuddle each other.
Do you see the difference? You've created a straw man.
@Satan phil,
Satan;75697 wrote:
Do you see the difference? You've created a straw man.
It wasn't a straw man, it was him not reading; as you pointed out. Kind of a silly accusation.
Anyone with half a brain knows that there are appropriate scenarios for discovering a right answer, and inappropriate ones (generally when there is no right answer).
Obviously, if you want X to happen, and X depends on Z and Y, you need to make sure that Z and Y hold before you try to make X hold, so you need to be right when you say 'X follows from Z and Y' and 'Z and Y hold', otherwise you have no idea if X holds.
In school, there are right answers because there is an attempt being made to program information into the students (not necessarily negative) so when a test is given, it is to check and see if the programing was successful. Now, the student can aide in the programming and self program, i.e. study, or he choose not to do so and either he is particularly easy to program, or he will fail the test.
In metaphysics there are no verifiably right answers so the results there are tautological constructs that rise from certain points that 'seem right' to the architect.
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;75704 wrote:It wasn't a straw man, it was him not reading; as you pointed out. Kind of a silly accusation.
"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."
Nowhere does it say it has to be intentional. He created a straw man because he failed to comprehend what he read or didn't bother to read it at all. You are wrong.
@Satan phil,
Satan;75706 wrote:"A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position."
Nowhere does it say it has to be intentional. He created a straw man because he failed to comprehend what he read or didn't bother to read it at all. You are wrong.
I was really just trying to indirectly say that you were being a bit ridiculous as it seemed to come off more as an attack (or something even more pointless) than anything, but you did that for me. Thank you.
I don't mind being ridiculous, I'll be ridiculous with you all day.
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;75712 wrote:I was really just trying to indirectly say that you were being a bit ridiculous as it seemed to come off more as an attack (or something even more pointless) than anything, but you did that for me. Thank you.
I don't mind being ridiculous, I'll be ridiculous with you all day.
I think you were simply being a pedant and it blew up in your face. Now you're just hurling thinly veiled insults. Being prideful on the Internet, now that's ridiculous. *yawn*
Let me know when you want to focus on the topic instead of this petty bickering. I'm sorry if I've rubbed you the wrong way but do get over it. It's not that big of a deal. Do you have anything meaningful to say about the
actual topic at hand?
@Satan phil,
I'm sorry that you have interpreted it that way, I'm just trying to get you to lighten up. Your reply to rich seemed too stern to be useful.
---------- Post added 07-07-2009 at 05:11 PM ----------
Satan;75715 wrote: Do you have anything meaningful to say about the actual topic at hand?
Sure, I already said it. It's right there in the post where I erroneously said 'Thats not a staw man'.
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;75719 wrote:I'm sorry that you have interpreted it that way, I'm just trying to get you to lighten up. Your reply to rich seemed too stern to be useful.
Define useful. Some people need a good dose of reality. How about we forgo the group therapy sessions today, Doc? Sometimes, I'm just not in the mood.
@Satan phil,
Satan;75723 wrote:Define useful. Some people need a good dose of reality. How about we forgo the group therapy sessions today, Doc? Sometimes, I'm just not in the mood.
Hi there,
I think, maybe inadvertently, you are providing a very good example of what happens when someone wants to be Right - maybe all the time. I would find it exhausting.
However, as you indicated, engineers don't cuddle but often they will give it a rest and come back to it. Sometimes they discuss, and sometimes they enter into heated debates and arguments and start using disparaging words about their colleagues claim, for example, that they do not know what they are talking about. It depends upon the individuals involved. Sometimes they don't even come up with an answer. And such is life.
Rich
---------- Post added 07-07-2009 at 06:15 PM ----------
Zetetic11235;75704 wrote:It wasn't a straw man, it was him not reading; as you pointed out. Kind of a silly accusation.
Hi,
Yes, I did misread. Thanks.
Rich
@richrf,
richrf;75764 wrote:I think, maybe inadvertently, you are providing a very good example of what happens when someone wants to be Right - maybe all the time. I would find it exhausting.
No, it's more like what happens when you expect people to be honest and straightforward but instead they make suggestive back of the hand comments. I'm dedicated to honesty and clear thinking so when surrounded by disingenuous muddled ideas, I can be a little bit temperamental. I am working on my patience, however, and I hope it will improve with age.
@Satan phil,
Satan;75723 wrote:Define useful. Some people need a good dose of reality. How about we forgo the group therapy sessions today, Doc? Sometimes, I'm just not in the mood.
It could possibly be barometric Satan. I get that way sometimes.
@richrf,
richrf;75676 wrote:Hi all,
This is from personal experiences, so take it for what it is worth:
We are taught in school that there is a right answer and a wrong answer.
Thats about it right there. I dont feel the need to slam public schools who dont teach critical thought. Why? I guess because critical thought is something that goes up in down, when dealing with "society". Its hard to teach someones specific balance and passionate interest, especially in schools where the information is raced through to keep up with tests and "assignments". I guess thats my qwam, qwuam, qwalm? lol.
@Joe,
Joe;75790 wrote:Thats about it right there. I dont feel the need to slam public schools who dont teach critical thought. Why? I guess because critical thought is something that goes up in down, when dealing with "society". Its hard to teach someones specific balance and passionate interest, especially in schools where the information is raced through to keep up with tests and "assignments". I guess thats my qwam, qwuam, qwalm? lol.
I would agree. I would say that there is little interest in teaching critical thought in schools, not in public, and not, dare I say universities. I think they teach Right and Wrong, and those who knows what's Right declare their upper echelon place in the hierarchy. Upper echelon has lots of benefits including more money and less work.
Rich
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