consciousness and your exact dubble

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Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 05:08 am
I had this idea a cupple weeks ago and thought I would share it and see what you think.

Okay. So my consciousness attached too this body right now. On a physical level we know its the process of the cells in my brain working.

so lets say i was vaporised one day.

But we had the technology to recreate every cell of me once again. an exact copy (I don't want anyone debating if this is possible. Its hypothetical)

Even though I was vaporised. Would my consciousness be the same one as it was before i died? Would it just feel like a blanked out then woke up again? even though its completely not me.
This happens through a persons life doesnt it? By middle age every cell in your body is a different one to when you were born. So if it happens when you are alive surely it can happen after you are dead too?

Is there any crazy philosophy that thinks hevan is a man made thing? Like we kept evolving and expanding and we became such high beings that we pretty much made heaven. And once people died in the past we materialised them back into the future Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy That would be very interesting.
 
richrf
 
Reply Wed 24 Jun, 2009 10:33 am
@glasstrees,
dwixi;71669 wrote:


Is there any crazy philosophy that thinks hevan is a man made thing? Like we kept evolving and expanding and we became such high beings that we pretty much made heaven. And once people died in the past we materialised them back into the future Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy That would be very interesting.


Hi,

There are philosophies that embrace the notion of a transcendental soul - e.g., consciousness that spans multiple physical lives, and what is learned in one physical life is "remembered" in another physical life. You might call these inherited characteristics.

Rich
 
glasstrees
 
Reply Thu 25 Jun, 2009 12:12 pm
@richrf,
richrf;71766 wrote:
Hi,

There are philosophies that embrace the notion of a transcendental soul - e.g., consciousness that spans multiple physical lives, and what is learned in one physical life is "remembered" in another physical life. You might call these inherited characteristics.

Rich



Hmm. Im yet to understand the whole soul idea. What is the use in a soul when your really the whole universe?
 
aeris ac
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 06:36 am
@glasstrees,
While i feel this question was meant to be a philosophical mind experiment, there will inevitably be science related parameters related to this. If the state of each cell, most importantly your brain cells, is exactly as it was prior to your vaporisation, it might be possible to recreate the same state of consciousness as your previous conscious self. Of prime importance is the fact that the brain cells, which are the centre of consciousness, store memories from childhood and, thus, are not completely renewed as the original question assumes (By middle age every cell in your body is a different one to when you were born).
On a purely philosophical level, if you were to recognize "consciousness" as a separate property of a being, and consider it to be transferable, your concept would be easily achieved. In fact, the concept of rebirth wouldn't seem too far fetched either.
 
bananabuddha
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 02:51 pm
@aeris ac,
The truth is that we cannot fathom things like this because we are in this physical, subjective state of being. Trying to fathom with your brain the situation that you presented above, is not possible. We will find out the answer if and when this scenario happens.
 
glasstrees
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 02:55 pm
@bananabuddha,
bananabuddha;72520 wrote:
The truth is that we cannot fathom things like this because we are in this physical, subjective state of being. Trying to fathom with your brain the situation that you presented above, is not possible. We will find out the answer if and when this scenario happens.


If i was consciousness, (witch i am) I wouldn't want to not try out everything that is possible at one time or another.
 
validity
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 05:26 pm
@glasstrees,
dwixi;71669 wrote:
Okay. So my consciousness attached too this body right now. On a physical level we know its the process of the cells in my brain working.

so lets say i was vaporised one day.

But we had the technology to recreate every cell of me once again. an exact copy (I don't want anyone debating if this is possible. Its hypothetical)

Even though I was vaporised. Would my consciousness be the same one as it was before i died? Would it just feel like a blanked out then woke up again? even though its completely not me.
Very interesting question. I do not think that consciousness can remain in a detached state from the brain (or similar device). The brain specifically holds memory. Consciousness can not be isolated from the brain as this would break the link with memory, that is a feature of consciousness. This view is important to my spin on your questions.

If you mean your consciousness and memories can be presevered while a new body is contructed then yes, it is the same consciousness as before corporeal vaporisation.

If you mean that a new body was recreated exactly, including replicating every memory your previous body experienced except the memory of your body being vaporised, then a new consciousness would consider that no thing has occured that would make it consider it is a consciousness other than the original you. However it is a new consciosness, since the original was removed (and subsequently lost without the supportive memory to maintain it) and unless anyone has knowledge of these events, no one could tell it was a new you (scary thought indeed)

dwixi;71669 wrote:
This happens through a persons life doesnt it? By middle age every cell in your body is a different one to when you were born. So if it happens when you are alive surely it can happen after you are dead too?.
During life all your cells are not replaced at exactly the same moment. The same consciousness can be carried through. As there is no specific point where all links to the supportive structures are lost.
 
glasstrees
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 05:33 pm
@validity,
validity;72562 wrote:
Very interesting question. I do not think that consciousness can remain in a detached state from the brain (or similar device). The brain specifically holds memory. Consciousness can not be isolated from the brain as this would break the link with memory, that is a feature of consciousness. This view is important to my spin on your questions.

If you mean your consciousness and memories can be presevered while a new body is contructed then yes, it is the same consciousness as before corporeal vaporisation.

If you mean that a new body was recreated exactly, including replicating every memory your previous body experienced except the memory of your body being vaporised, then a new consciousness would consider that no thing has occured that would make it consider it is a consciousness other than the original you. However it is a new consciosness, since the original was removed (and subsequently lost without the supportive memory to maintain it) and unless anyone has knowledge of these events, no one could tell it was a new you (scary thought indeed)

During life all your cells are not replaced at exactly the same moment. The same consciousness can be carried through. As there is no specific point where all links to the supportive structures are lost.



to the top quote. Interesting take. What if the brain was just a manifestation of your concept of memories on a deeper consciousness level. And it is just the physical reality manifestation?

to the second bit.

yeah I dint mean they instantly replace. There just a replica or the original slowly over time this happens.
 
paulhanke
 
Reply Fri 26 Jun, 2009 08:39 pm
@glasstrees,
dwixi;72563 wrote:
to the top quote. Interesting take. What if the brain was just a manifestation of your concept of memories on a deeper consciousness level. And it is just the physical reality manifestation?


... "just" may be a bit too dismissive ... the brain is a complex physical structure, the internal interactions from which consciousness emerges, the thoughts of which in-turn modify the complex physical structure of the brain, the internal interactions from which consciousness emerges, the thoughts of which in-turn modify the complex physical structure of the brain, ad infinitum ... ... ...
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2009 02:00 am
@glasstrees,
If this;

dwixi;71669 wrote:
So my consciousness attached too this body right now. On a physical level we know its the process of the cells in my brain working.

'We' know no such thing. But for argument sake, I'll tentatively accept it.
So, 'your consciousness' is a 'result' of 'your' brain activity.
Ok...

Quote:
so lets say i was vaporised one day.

No more brain, no more "brain activity".

But, if so, then the following;
Quote:
Would my consciousness be the same one as it was before i died?

...be answered in your first assertion!
No brain = no consciousness!
Death is end of consciousness (according to your parameters).
Nothing...

Quote:
Is there any crazy philosophy that thinks hevan is a man made thing?

Most philosophies that utilize critical thought and/or logic and/or rationality and/or science would think so...
Most might say that Heaven is a 'belief' or a 'metaphor' or a 'Perspective'... but few thinking folks (it's for 'believing' folks) think that it is an actual 'physical' place.
 
glasstrees
 
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2009 05:47 pm
@nameless,
nameless;72650 wrote:
If this;


'We' know no such thing. But for argument sake, I'll tentatively accept it.
So, 'your consciousness' is a 'result' of 'your' brain activity.
Ok...


No more brain, no more "brain activity".

But, if so, then the following;

...be answered in your first assertion!
No brain = no consciousness!
Death is end of consciousness (according to your parameters).
Nothing...


Most philosophies that utilize critical thought and/or logic and/or rationality and/or science would think so...
Most might say that Heaven is a 'belief' or a 'metaphor' or a 'Perspective'... but few thinking folks (it's for 'believing' folks) think that it is an actual 'physical' place.


OKay i get what you ment now.

One thing to correct.

I didnt mean Death is end of consciousness

I mean death is the end of limited consciousness back into the everything is possible consciousness
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2009 05:55 pm
@glasstrees,
dwixi;72865 wrote:
I didnt mean Death is end of consciousness

I mean death is the end of limited consciousness back into the everything is possible consciousness

So, 'death' is the end of Conscious Perspective, us, yet there is no 'end' of Consciousness.
That is the way I see it (at the moment), also.

(You did define 'consciousness' as the result of a functioning brain. It was that offered definition that refuted the assumption of consciousness 'after' death.)
 
glasstrees
 
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2009 05:59 pm
@nameless,
nameless;72870 wrote:
So, 'death' is the end of Conscious Perspective, us, yet there is no 'end' of Consciousness.
That is the way I see it (at the moment), also.

(You did define 'consciousness' as the result of a functioning brain. It was that offered definition that refuted the assumption of consciousness 'after' death.)


Yeah but i also said the physical brain was a manifestation of consciousness
 
nameless
 
Reply Sat 27 Jun, 2009 06:08 pm
@glasstrees,
dwixi;72873 wrote:
Yeah but i also said the physical brain was a manifestation of consciousness

Ok, perhaps these old eyes are missing the obvious. Please highlight where you said that in your OP;

Quote:
I had this idea a cupple weeks ago and thought I would share it and see what you think.

Okay. So my consciousness attached too this body right now. On a physical level we know its the process of the cells in my brain working.

so lets say i was vaporised one day.

But we had the technology to recreate every cell of me once again. an exact copy (I don't want anyone debating if this is possible. Its hypothetical)

Even though I was vaporised. Would my consciousness be the same one as it was before i died? Would it just feel like a blanked out then woke up again? even though its completely not me.
This happens through a persons life doesnt it? By middle age every cell in your body is a different one to when you were born. So if it happens when you are alive surely it can happen after you are dead too?

Is there any crazy philosophy that thinks hevan is a man made thing? Like we kept evolving and expanding and we became such high beings that we pretty much made heaven. And once people died in the past we materialised them back into the future That would be very interesting.
 
Kielicious
 
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 02:10 am
@glasstrees,
dwixi;71669 wrote:

so lets say i was vaporised one day.

But we had the technology to recreate every cell of me once again. an exact copy (I don't want anyone debating if this is possible. Its hypothetical)

Even though I was vaporised. Would my consciousness be the same one as it was before i died? Would it just feel like a blanked out then woke up again? even though its completely not me.
This happens through a persons life doesnt it? By middle age every cell in your body is a different one to when you were born. So if it happens when you are alive surely it can happen after you are dead too?



Paul made a thread about this not too long ago.

http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/philosophy-forums/branches-philosophy/philosophy-mind/2676-thought-experiments-continuity-self.html

We talked about it for a little.... interesting idea nonetheless.

I came about that little 'thought experiment' of duplicating consciousness about a year ago but later found out it was originally conceived of by Dennett back in the 80s I believe. He made a short movie about it but I cant find it at the moment... Maybe tomorrow I'll find it and edit it back in this post.
 
glasstrees
 
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 05:32 am
@nameless,
nameless;72879 wrote:
Ok, perhaps these old eyes are missing the obvious. Please highlight where you said that in your OP;


So my consciousness attached too this body right now. On a physical level we know its the process of the cells in my brain working.

Kinda there but yeah.Not well said

---------- Post added at 01:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 PM ----------

Kielicious;72968 wrote:
Paul made a thread about this not too long ago.

http://www.philosophyforum.com/forum/philosophy-forums/branches-philosophy/philosophy-mind/2676-thought-experiments-continuity-self.html

We talked about it for a little.... interesting idea nonetheless.

I came about that little 'thought experiment' of duplicating consciousness about a year ago but later found out it was originally conceived of by Dennett back in the 80s I believe. He made a short movie about it but I cant find it at the moment... Maybe tomorrow I'll find it and edit it back in this post.


Wow. Someone had the exact same idea of me. I think he actually put it better D:
 
Poseidon
 
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 07:35 am
@glasstrees,
So what if...

I stored the precise data of every atom in my body. Its position and momentum, etc...
I then recreated several atomically precise clones of myself.

These clones, being my exact replicas, would they manifest the same sense of self as I?
If it was the exact SAME sense of self, then would I be aware of all they were aware of?
And if not, how would this be possible, since they are the exact SAME sense of self as I?
 
Elmk
 
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 09:44 am
@glasstrees,
 
richrf
 
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 10:12 am
@Elmk,
I imagine consciousness to be like a body of water. From the water comes waves. A brain and physical body manifests from the movement of the water, much like the vortex of water at a drain.

So, I see consciousness, the brain, and the whole human body as a manifestation of the oscillating movement of consciousness. This is an example of what a single pendulum swinging back and forth in space time can look like:

Pendulum Gallery

http://bulbphotography.com/_images/usuff/pendulum-image3.jpg

So when a vortex or wave disappears, the water is still there. As does consciousness still exist as the physical body disperses.

Rich
 
bananabuddha
 
Reply Sun 28 Jun, 2009 11:27 am
@glasstrees,
dwixi;72521 wrote:
If i was consciousness, (witch i am) I wouldn't want to not try out everything that is possible at one time or another.


Yeah, but you're in this "singularity" of consciousness right now. I'm sure you'd like to experience being a child before an adult, and then an adult before an elderly person. Regardless of whether time is illusory or not, everything must undergo it's course of evolution before it reaches a certain point.

---------- Post added at 01:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:27 PM ----------

richrf, just to be curious, do you think that consciousness is a product of the brain? Or do you think that it is something that possibly spans across many fields of existence?
 
 

 
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