Things We Believe But Cannot Proove

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Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 09:06 am
I believe that i believe impossibile things.

I believe that the day will come when we won't need any laws or punishments. Everyone will be aware of his/her responsibilities and freedom.

I believe that people will learn to respect each other's point of wievs, every thought will be respected equally.

I believe that there is no absolute truth, everything is a thing depending on the eye of the observer, the point of view.

I can not proove theese because every day i read another crime, another war starting and world WATCHING it, doing nothing, and people who are classified as 'wise', 'controlling world', 'making big and very important decisions' don't do anything. It seems all non-sense to believe in theese.

But if i don't believe in theese things, what is left to be done for world peace and a 'liveable' world?

Me creating reasons to believe in such things that could be classified as 'necessary' for world, is weird because normally everyone must be thinking in the same way that i do and i shouldn't be writing reasons for believing that world will be a better place.(So i shouldn't have done it, yeah?)


Something i can proove:
I also believe that some members of this forum are defending their 'ideas' very sharply, i think nobody has changed other's idea in some way. Why is everyone acting like all truths is in their hands? Maybe i feel a bit jealous because i am very not-sure about anything i know. I feel like i will never be satisfied- i can not prrove this too. This can only be prooved by me when i reach the point where i can see all ways of satisfiying myself.

love,
grasshopper
 
Catchabula
 
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 09:39 am
@grasshopper,
grasshopper wrote:
I also believe that some members of this forum are defending their 'ideas' very sharply, i think nobody has changed other's idea in some way. Why is everyone acting like all truths is in their hands? Maybe i feel a bit jealous because i am very not-sure about anything i know. I feel like i will never be satisfied- i can not prrove this too. This can only be prooved by me when i reach the point where i can see all ways of satisfiying myself.


I sincerely believe there are some wise, deep, mature and wonderful minds around here (not my own, not my own! :bigsmile: ). There may be also a few fools around (not me either), and perhaps some foolish wise or wise fools. Some may indeed suffer from a pronounced Ego, but that often happens with clever people, and those who are wise enough will realise that the Ego has hardly any importance. Besides this kind of signals has nothing to do with real strenght of character and could be caused by inner certainty as well as by the lack of it. It definitely has nothing to do with the general quality or with the amount of truth of what people say in their postings. Be critical but open yourself up, stand for what you are and yet learn actively. All this may be pretty difficult but it can be practiced in here.
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 11:02 am
@grasshopper,
This thread should be subtitled: Things I say but cannot spell.. It is my weakness too...I am still working on Macbre...

Could it be that everyone is jeolous of the mountain of truth they have climbed; as though now it should be considered as their property??? I am a thief of truth... I take what I find unguarded, and leave mine unguarded while, knowing you have to have some, to desire more... It is the first grasp of knowledge which eludes the many; so truth as light as ether can be left lying while people steal gold that is forever a burden...
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 01:24 pm
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
This thread should be subtitled: Things I say but cannot spell.. It is my weakness too...I am still working on Macbre...

Could it be that everyone is jeolous of the mountain of truth they have climbed; as though now it should be considered as their property??? I am a thief of truth... I take what I find unguarded, and leave mine unguarded while, knowing you have to have some, to desire more... It is the first grasp of knowledge which eludes the many; so truth as light as ether can be left lying while people steal gold that is forever a burden...
The spell button is a wonderful invention friend, i dont leave home without it.It has a problem when it cant decide what context you me en.I think those who believe they are right and are forceful at certain points in life can be of great service. IE stopping the bully in a gang or standing up for a weaker member of the community..they are heroes........"I believe" what a thing to say do you really me it?
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 07:04 pm
@grasshopper,
grasshopper wrote:


Something i can proove:
I also believe that some members of this forum are defending their 'ideas' very sharply, i think nobody has changed other's idea in some way. Why is everyone acting like all truths is in their hands? Maybe i feel a bit jealous because i am very not-sure about anything i know. I feel like i will never be satisfied- i can not prrove this too. This can only be prooved by me when i reach the point where i can see all ways of satisfiying myself.


Typically I do not change my thinking, because I have been doing it for so many years, but my thinking is often refined. An good argument for logical positivism, for example, is not going to cause me to drop my theories, but it may cause me to change certain aspects of my own philosophy in subtle ways. Defend your ideas sharply, because they are your ideas. Just because others may not agree with you does not mean that they are right.

Anyway, on the spelling side note, how can people continue to spell words wrong when modern browsers come equipped with a spellchecker? The convenient underline of words means they are spelled wrong.
 
Fido
 
Reply Wed 4 Feb, 2009 07:59 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Typically I do not change my thinking, because I have been doing it for so many years, but my thinking is often refined. An good argument for logical positivism, for example, is not going to cause me to drop my theories, but it may cause me to change certain aspects of my own philosophy in subtle ways. Defend your ideas sharply, because they are your ideas. Just because others may not agree with you does not mean that they are right.

Anyway, on the spelling side note, how can people continue to spell words wrong when modern browsers come equipped with a spellchecker? The convenient underline of words means they are spelled wrong.

That must be so cool to say: My own philosophy... My own has got everyone else's name all over it... And I am more of a moralist, and if Nietzsche is any example, I think he did not even consider moralists to be philosophers...What would be the point of an immoral philosophy???
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 12:13 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
That must be so cool to say: My own philosophy... My own has got everyone else's name all over it... And I am more of a moralist, and if Nietzsche is any example, I think he did not even consider moralists to be philosophers...What would be the point of an immoral philosophy???


Your own philosophy may have everyone else's name all over it, but it is still yours. By synthesizing different ideas from different thinkers, you form a philosophy uniquely your own.
 
grasshopper
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 07:52 am
@grasshopper,
HEHE. I was expecting to see some things that you believe but can not proove. Anyways.
I'll start using spell-checker and make sure i write corrrrectlyy.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 08:11 am
@grasshopper,
I believe that the smartest creature on the earth is the cockroach, because they seem to have evolved capabilities to withstand the worst event that humans could possible cause--nuclear holocaust. I guess to prove this true or not would require a nuclear holocaust, but then we could not verify my inkling.
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 10:25 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Your own philosophy may have everyone else's name all over it, but it is still yours. By synthesizing different ideas from different thinkers, you form a philosophy uniquely your own.

Then philosophy is in trouble...From now on the blind guy is the designated driver...
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 10:48 am
@Fido,
Fido wrote:
Then philosophy is in trouble...From now on the blind guy is the designated driver...


I would find philosophy to be in more trouble by clinging to bad ideas that historical philosophers held. Philosophy could be an extremely valuable field if it was allowed to evolve into its functional potential. Logic, ethics, and critical thinking are needed more than ever in the world. While the history of philosophy is fine and all, it is reference material and books--many of which are horribly dry, and sometimes poorly translated. The important aspect of philosophy is synthesizing knowledge, and being able to defend different perspectives. If more focus would be on integrating these skills into the curriculum of schools then there would not be an overabundance of automatons.
 
Catchabula
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 11:33 am
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
I believe that the smartest creature on the earth is the cockroach, because they seem to have evolved capabilities to withstand the worst event that humans could possible cause--nuclear holocaust. I guess to prove this true or not would require a nuclear holocaust, but then we could not verify my inkling.


I believe that the most stupid creature on the earth is the philosopher, because it has evolved the capacity for empty reasoning, playing the "bel-esprit", saying nothing important in any sense of the word, only playing smart because there's a girl around. There's no proof needed for that because it jumps to the eye like a cockroach with rabies. Please do something useful or at least say something sensible. Thank you.
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 12:24 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
I would find philosophy to be in more trouble by clinging to bad ideas that historical philosophers held. Philosophy could be an extremely valuable field if it was allowed to evolve into its functional potential. Logic, ethics, and critical thinking are needed more than ever in the world. While the history of philosophy is fine and all, it is reference material and books--many of which are horribly dry, and sometimes poorly translated. The important aspect of philosophy is synthesizing knowledge, and being able to defend different perspectives. If more focus would be on integrating these skills into the curriculum of schools then there would not be an overabundance of automatons.

What I have picked up iss not ideas, bad or otherwise... We all have ideas, but we do not all have attitude, like man as the center of meaning...And philosophy has done that; put man at the center, and not God, or the Sun... It has to be true to some one to be true...It has to be ideal to some one to be ideal...

And I do agree that philosophy should be taught, because to use one example, of Germany, it was the trained technitions who suddenly became bored in approaching middle age who were not trained in philosophy who were the first to be affected by bits and pieces of philosophy and pseudophilosophy turned out as national socialism... No one should be relegated by education to go no where... Everyone ought to get the sense that the sky is the limit... No matter how good your income or your job, sooner or later your eyes will find the horizon and touch the stars...Now; I am a working man...I am retired, but I was a born philosopher...I was born into a situation that demanded an existentialist to survive.. And I survived, part animal, barely human; and I lived on manual labor, but only to keep my thoughts free of the necessity of supporting myself with them... Now, I am free, not of pain or worries, but of the need to always pace the machine.... If people need to be a part of the rat race, it is they more than any others who need to ask and answer philosophical questions, in a rational and pragmantic fashion if they will survive... Everyone should learn the skills of thought... It is those who seem to need it the least who really need it the most...
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 12:32 pm
@Catchabula,
Catchabula wrote:
I believe that the most stupid creature on the earth is the philosopher, because it has evolved the capacity for empty reasoning, playing the "bel-esprit", saying nothing important in any sense of the word, only playing smart because there's a girl around. There's no proof needed for that because it jumps to the eye like a cockroach with rabies. Please do something useful or at least say something sensible. Thank you.

Who would feel lucky to be a cockroach; but they are more lucky than smart...They are blessed with many babies who will eat their mommas **** if nothing else is available, and do so until the momma roach decides to check into a roach hotel... They hide in the dark and run from the light and it may not be much, but it keeps them survived to eat anything we drop or leave laying around... How smart do you have to be if your genes are smart for you????

I don't know where you live; but if you are really smart you will let the girl do the thinking...They have superior minds for almost everything, and they can tell when something stinks... Men can be trained to certain tasks... Let yourself be trained to put down the toilet seat and clean the toilet and shower once in a while, and you will be happy with plenty of time to do the philosophy...
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 04:11 pm
@Catchabula,
Catchabula wrote:
I believe that the most stupid creature on the earth is the philosopher, because it has evolved the capacity for empty reasoning, playing the "bel-esprit", saying nothing important in any sense of the word, only playing smart because there's a girl around. There's no proof needed for that because it jumps to the eye like a cockroach with rabies. Please do something useful or at least say something sensible. Thank you.


Ouch. Apparently you did not see the OP's suggestion that they expected the conversation to be about things we believe that we cannot prove. I simply stated one of my believes which questions the very nature of intelligence. Is a species that annihilates itself more intelligent than a species that survives through that act of stupidity? Of course not because it has ceased to exist. By default the cockroach ends up more intelligent because it found a way to evolve in a way that maximized its ability to survive.

So please take your own advice, and do something useful, or say something sensible. Apparently, philosophy inspires some to sling mud.
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 04:26 pm
@grasshopper,
If we are working on self annhilation we are not doing so well at it...We are doing good at extinction for other species....We do get us sometimes, but only because we are to numerous to miss... Spit anywhere and you hit some one... Hope fully it is some one with a sense of humorosity
 
Catchabula
 
Reply Thu 5 Feb, 2009 11:35 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:
Ouch. Apparently you did not see the OP's suggestion that they expected the conversation to be about things we believe that we cannot prove. I simply stated one of my believes which questions the very nature of intelligence. Is a species that annihilates itself more intelligent than a species that survives through that act of stupidity? Of course not because it has ceased to exist. By default the cockroach ends up more intelligent because it found a way to evolve in a way that maximized its ability to survive.

So please take your own advice, and do something useful, or say something sensible. Apparently, philosophy inspires some to sling mud.


I often wondered how my last posting would be. Would it be the expression of thanks? Would it be some sharp noble critic? Or would it be some wild kicking around? None of these, It's really all too simple to step out. You just stop posting and you get back to the other things, the good old sensible things, the things that you may have neglected while you were here. You read more, you talk with your fellow human beings, you make a walk, you help people where you can. You think your own thoughts and you feel your own feelings, and you simply know what's important and what's not, and when you're thinking sensible or not. In two days your postings are covered with others, many silly like your own, selfish like your own, your words have never existed, you existed for nobody. Loosing time here does not make you better, it drags you into empty disputes without human relevance, into empty games where you have to win and not to grow. Theaethetus, I still think your statement was not wise, it was not even clever. It was an empty play with words and it was the expression of a subtle arrogance, with or without a girl around, with or without cockroaches. I've seen that before here and I've seen it all too often, and I'm fed up with it. I thought it all over and I made a decision, I wanted to do it before and I should have done it before. I'm not turning my back on philosophy but on what's made of it here: a silly little game with winners and loosers, a place where you can "shine". I'm not turning my back on the good but what I feel to be the bad and the ugly here. I'll try to stay in touch with some good people but there will be no more postings. You don't need to look for anything sensible in my words, you know what they're worth, you didn't even had to read this. Yes, I'm no good in philosophy, the blame is all mine. Anything you like. Bye.
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 6 Feb, 2009 06:24 am
@grasshopper,
Where you going??? And why???We are in this together...No one can get there alone...Would you deny us your help, your perspective, your company???
 
manored
 
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 10:13 am
@grasshopper,
grasshopper wrote:


Something i can proove:
I also believe that some members of this forum are defending their 'ideas' very sharply, i think nobody has changed other's idea in some way. Why is everyone acting like all truths is in their hands? Maybe i feel a bit jealous because i am very not-sure about anything i know. I feel like i will never be satisfied- i can not prrove this too. This can only be prooved by me when i reach the point where i can see all ways of satisfiying myself.

love,
grasshopper
If you have a lot of point of view you have a lot of ways to defend your ideas, people get tired of the discussion before the conclusion Smile

I dont know how much time Catcha used to spend here, but, from his post, it seens it was too much Smile I dont know why he suddently started to think this forum is mostly worthless though, but I have never understood him well.
 
sarathustrah
 
Reply Sat 7 Feb, 2009 10:35 am
@grasshopper,
i came to post that i theorize but cannot proove that there is no such thing as "nothing"
-that there is no such thing as 2 dimensional
-and that the shape of atoms is triangular, not clouds of circles (but this requires an extensive discussion of how things are fit together more like puzzle pieces with no gaps at all, but able to change form, chemical composition, and all without the existance of "nothing" as the free space to move into... ok i suck with words and this is definitly not the right way of saying it)

but as for the escalating flaming....
i maintain that an idea doesnt belong to anyone... a person could go unexposed to certain teachings like gravity, and be able to realize it on their own... just because so and so is the first to lay claim to the thought, doesnt mean it was never thought before. Its silly to say an idea is yours... improving and linking ideas together is the key... a philosopher is NOT pointless... because promoting ideas, promoting values, morals, healthy ways of thinking, learning to debate in a healthy way... all those things are important and should continue to be practiced... this forum being the most wonderful place to get a healthy dose of that

we all have the urge to be heard... and many have a bizarre need for conflict...

i believe i seen someone mention nobody here changes their mind... i have about a few things... i learned alot... i learned better ways to explain something in a more simplified way... besides its unhealthy to aim at converting people to your way of thinking... if nothing else it only helped you confirm that youre sure youre thought is on the right track more so than the conflicting opinion right... so long as there is truly no harm done...
 
 

 
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