Fear on sleep bothers me.

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Poseidon
 
Reply Thu 29 Jan, 2009 03:53 pm
@manored,
And the day has been
siezed & siezed & siezed
until it withers in the noise
& heat & dust & lust &
must - must - must !
honking of the goose
& faltering crumbling capitalist trust

of humanity and its strangling noose,
throttling throat-hold seizure
of each second of the
golden egg of day

Release the night,
feel not bound by any
socially compulsive order to own
& to have everything within reach

like a child in a supermarket,
wanting, craving, yearning for
its day to sieze
and siege & sigh

the cool night siezes nought,
awash on the dreamtide,
untethered by stardust & dreamdust

the body,
he rests, the soul
she flies.

Fractal Space Poetry
 
Catchabula
 
Reply Thu 29 Jan, 2009 04:41 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon wrote:
The Penguin could be a metaphor for the penguin-people. Those stuffed shirts who dress like penguins, and are intent on making the common philosopher angstful with their mindless self-ism.
 
manored
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 09:32 am
@manored,
manored wrote:


As for what dreams are, I think got an answer to myself: Althought I am a "bad dreamer" sometimes I managed to enter a state of mind where I was not completly asleep nor completly awake, kind of experiencing a greater level of immersion than normal imagination gives in an idea, but not as deep and inconscient as a true dream. This state seemed to come out of an standart imagined idea, so my teory is this: We are dreaming all the time, but then we are awake our conscience has an very strong grip on the situation, so there is little space for randow thought chitchatter. For example sometimes musics start playing in my head winhout I telling then to, activated by certain thoughts. Then we are asleep our conscience is very faint and gives out only a few thoughts, wich are reflexed in all sorts of ways in our dreams.

Analogy: Imagine a box inside wich there is no air nor gravit, aka: what is inside bounces at will. Lets say that one person had the ability to totally control the movement of some balls inside it. Then it was controlling most, with only a few bouncing at randow, it would be awake, while then it was controlling only a little, with most boucing at randow, it would be asleep.
What about this teory for wich I got no reply? Smile

The penguins are there because they are an apropiate (ridiculous enough) thing to be occuping the vacant space of our brains.
 
Catchabula
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 01:58 pm
@manored,
It's an old trick! Philosophers are ambitious. When they don't understand the World they create a whole New World instead (a Brave one), denouncing the old World as illusionary, ruled by evil, not our real home, or whatever. So you either follow them to their weightless empire, seduced by their alluring words and their gentle smile, or you try to stay with your feet on the ground and you stick to the Old School, called Science! Sceptical attitude, logical reasoning, keen observation, repeatable experiment, careful explanation by the use of tested hypotheses... some must have heard about it here. Philosophers often seem to forget that in the mind Reason has an fierceful enemy called Illusion, and that Illusions are born and bred by words, and from the egocentric reflex of philosophers who want to play God, considering their own discourse as the Verbum Dei. This has not so much to do with this thread, but more with my general impressions since I'm hanging around here. But what about Mano's problem?

-I think you are simply describing the state of hypnosis, in this case self-induced hypnosis or auto-hypnosis. We all pass through this stage when we fall asleep so it is really not an extraordinary state of mind. Subjectively it may feel special, but it is a very frequent and common phenomenon, easily induced by some herbal infusion or relaxing music. I'm not a specialist in these matters but I remember the old movies: look at my watch... you are asleep... yes.... deep.... deep.....asleep... It seems that our mind needs to concentrate on something in order to enter the state of being hypnotised. And this could very well be a thought as well as a penny or a spot on the wall. This state of mind is also corresponding to a certain neurological state of our brain if I remember well, with certain types of brainwaves dominating (alpha?). Between hypnosis and being awake there are several stages of being relaxed, and there may be also a few stages between hypnosis and deep sleep. I can only repeat there's nothing special happening here. Our physical brains being naturally involved as well as our mind.

-Consider the dream objectively, as a phenomenon like a hurricane or a bad digestion. Dreams contain (mostly visual) images, some thoughts (rather few) and an awful lot of feelings, feelings that can be very intense with certain people (take nightmares). Now if I remember well the mechanism that determines our specific "choices" in a chain of thoughts is called "association", and the way people associate is determined by their state of mind and even gives a clear view on it. And now mr. Freud appears on the stage, explaining certain images and associations by mental trauma's. Our dreams are expressing those trauma's by re-enacting them in a hidden form, to avoid direct and painful confrontation with the person who suffers from them. As one knows so-called psycho-analysis uses dream-analysis during therapy, while becoming conscious of repressed trauma's is their only effective cure. If you state that you can control the flow of thoughts "better" in a waking state, it is because your associations are determined by another "level" in your mind, the conscious "Ego" and not the sub- or unconscious "Id". The Ego is you, the Id is U2, but it is for a large extent hidden for your Ego, and it follows its own associations. Your thoughts are still produced by you, but it feels like it is somebody else. It's that part of the iceberg that's under water, but it still is you as a complete human being. And the part that is under water is HUGE!

Now I have two more things to say. Firstly, if somebody wants to correct my summary of Freud and denounce it as all too simplified, please go ahead; I'm just writing down what I remember from him now. Freud is a fascinating and still relevant thinker who deserves a more pronounced presence here. Secondly, the developments earlier in this thread suggested that dreams are "special". They are "special" indeed, but only when given a peculiar importance or significance by the dreamer, and the emotions that are induced by the dream make that very easy. I think it's that process of "giving sense" that makes a dream a Dream, terminological aspects being only briefly investigated here. I personally feel my life as largely determined by the tension between reason and emotions, and I see this posting as an offensive of reason. And yet "...I'm a dreamer, and I'm not the only one" :flowers:

 
Poseidon
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 04:47 pm
@manored,
Well.
There are plenty of mindless people: Those whose Ego are ruled by the Id and have no viable super-ego to regulate them:

Pedophiles are mindless. Many suicides and mass-murderers are mindless. Bestiality is mindless. Homosexuals are mindless. People who are wealthy and yet compulsively steal are mindless.

Do you dress like a penguin Catchabula?
The comment was not directed at you.
Don't worry you are quite mindful as your anagrams show.

I was merely offering a possible explanation for the dream which shows a frustration at penguinism. What else could the penguin be explained as representing? Other than a 'stuffed shirt'?
....

Manored: (Amor nerd)
I like the way your idea works. Meditation and 'waking dreams' fit your explanation quite well.

The distinction between conscious and subconscious is Freuds most important discovery, and I would suggest it is the greatest discovery of all time, as it explains self-destructive 'mindless' behaviour. Of course I do not mean by 'mindless', that there are literally zombis walking around without brains or souls. But that they are people who are so overwelmed by the subconscious in the form of Id, that they are similar to zombis.

(sorry about bad spelling in poem above)
 
Catchabula
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 05:08 pm
@Poseidon,
Poseidon wrote:
Well....... Homosexuals are mindless....


Hm well, hmmm...
-Yes, I was grumpy.
-As concerns the statement above, I suddenly remember I have to check if I'm not in the basement. Bye :whistling:
 
Kolbe
 
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2009 06:04 pm
@manored,
Well I certainly know a few whose minds are ruled by the Id, and can't call them mindless at all! The conversations with them are quite nice, actually, mostly concerning the British Empire and weed.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2009 10:32 am
@manored,
manored wrote:
... then I am alone and trying to sleep I am suddently struck by an anoying fear of that something scary or weird will aparear and attack me or force me to get out of the bed to do something about it, and even thought I know thats an ridiculous fear I dont manage to get rid of it...

... Anyone feels something similar?


Yea, I had quite an issue with this when I was younger; ending round about age 19 or 20. I distinctly remember the feeling of raw fear and my conscious mind being completely unable to "convince" the emotional. It was very unnerving.

Looking back, I think the only thing that helped me overcome such 'episodes' was time.

Good luck!
 
manored
 
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2009 04:34 pm
@Catchabula,
Catchabula wrote:
-I think you are simply describing the state of hypnosis, in this case self-induced hypnosis or auto-hypnosis. We all pass through this stage when we fall asleep so it is really not an extraordinary state of mind. Subjectively it may feel special, but it is a very frequent and common phenomenon, easily induced by some herbal infusion or relaxing music. I'm not a specialist in these matters but I remember the old movies: look at my watch... you are asleep... yes.... deep.... deep.....asleep... It seems that our mind needs to concentrate on something in order to enter the state of being hypnotised. And this could very well be a thought as well as a penny or a spot on the wall. This state of mind is also corresponding to a certain neurological state of our brain if I remember well, with certain types of brainwaves dominating (alpha?). Between hypnosis and being awake there are several stages of being relaxed, and there may be also a few stages between hypnosis and deep sleep. I can only repeat there's nothing special happening here. Our physical brains being naturally involved as well as our mind.
I have only one mind thought. If something is happening on it, it doesnt matters if it is frequent and common, its still of utmost importance Smile

Poseidon wrote:
Well.
There are plenty of mindless people: Those whose Ego are ruled by the Id and have no viable super-ego to regulate them:

Pedophiles are mindless. Many suicides and mass-murderers are mindless. Bestiality is mindless. Homosexuals are mindless. People who are wealthy and yet compulsively steal are mindless.

Do you dress like a penguin Catchabula?
The comment was not directed at you.
Don't worry you are quite mindful as your anagrams show.

I was merely offering a possible explanation for the dream which shows a frustration at penguinism. What else could the penguin be explained as representing? Other than a 'stuffed shirt'?
....

Manored: (Amor nerd)
I like the way your idea works. Meditation and 'waking dreams' fit your explanation quite well.

The distinction between conscious and subconscious is Freuds most important discovery, and I would suggest it is the greatest discovery of all time, as it explains self-destructive 'mindless' behaviour. Of course I do not mean by 'mindless', that there are literally zombis walking around without brains or souls. But that they are people who are so overwelmed by the subconscious in the form of Id, that they are similar to zombis.

(sorry about bad spelling in poem above)
I think that we cant really claim these people are ruled by the ID, because then we would have to accept emotions are ruled by the ID, and as all are ruled by emotions, there is none that is not ruled by the ID at all. For example pedophiles merely are attracted to children instead of adults: just a different emotion, and there are also people who are attracted to children but arent pedophiles because their sense of morals prevent, and even people who are attracted to both.

Khethil wrote:
Yea, I had quite an issue with this when I was younger; ending round about age 19 or 20. I distinctly remember the feeling of raw fear and my conscious mind being completely unable to "convince" the emotional. It was very unnerving.

Looking back, I think the only thing that helped me overcome such 'episodes' was time.

Good luck!
Thanks for the wish. I have been waiting for time to do this for long, and althought it has already started, it has not finished yet. I think it needs a kick Smile

Oh, and the penguins were never dreamt, only imagined.
 
Catchabula
 
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2009 12:29 pm
@manored,
manored wrote:
I have only one mind thought. If something is happening on it, it doesnt matters if it is frequent and common, its still of utmost importance Smile .


I bought a new bike yesterday. It's a very light model, high-tech really, with a polyester frame so it's easy to carry on your shoulder on a difficult terrain. It rains a lot here in Belgium and with the frost lacking the roads have become slippery and wet. Now can you imagine what happened yesterday? I slipped and I fell on my head! I had a nasty cut in my left eyebrow and I was loosing a lot of blood. The doctor had to desinfect the wound and that was hurting quite a lot. It still hurts and I wondered if something could be done about that. Am I even normal??

And it was not the first time I fell from my bike! A few years ago I went on vacation to the southern part of Belgium. Everything went well until I was climbing that slope in the neighbourhood of Bastogne. It was a dark and rainy day although it was in the middle of summer, and temperatures had fallen to minus seven or nine. I may have slipped again but when I woke up six months later I had all kinds of tubes coming out of my body. A guy in a long black overcoat came in and told me I had taken the red pill by mistake. Now I am part of the rebellion against the galactic empire and my codenaam is Von Stauffenberg. That's what get when you cruise around on your bike.

Now I wondered if some of you had this kind of experiences before and could help me with my dissertation? I know it's a difficult question so I offer a plastic penguin to all who can help me to get back to Earth, leaving the Borgs and the Klingons here in the Fifth Quadrant. I know I'm not handsome but I know the Truth and also a few things about pinguins that better remain hidden. These penguins are just imagined by the way. Thank you for your help!
 
manored
 
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2009 03:14 pm
@manored,
Good luck Von Stauffenberg, may the force be with you.

Oh and your sick ex-wife divorced from you and married a doctor yesterday. Im sorry. Oh, wait, I am not.

#THIS IS NOT A JOKE#

By the way, sometimes then I am about to get out of the bed I fall asleep again and dream I had got out of the bed in the moment I had actually fell assleep, what is very desorientating then I wake up for good. Ever happened to anyone else? Smile

#THIS IS NOT A JOKE#
 
Catchabula
 
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2009 04:02 pm
@manored,
Well, mine was a joke. I remembered I hadn't laughed for too long, so I kept it silly for a moment. The motto's here:
-Don't let the smiley smile for you
-The clever can think, the wise can laugh.
Mano, why don't we have a joke section around here? There are good jokes around, and very philosophical for that matter. The simplest of all good advice: have fun (now and then). Seeya Smile .
 
manored
 
Reply Mon 2 Feb, 2009 10:52 pm
@Catchabula,
Catchabula wrote:
Well, mine was a joke. I remembered I hadn't laughed for too long, so I kept it silly for a moment. The motto's here:
-Don't let the smiley smile for you
-The clever can think, the wise can laugh.
Mano, why don't we have a joke section around here? There are good jokes around, and very philosophical for that matter. The simplest of all good advice: have fun (now and then). Seeya Smile .
The non-joke zone is between the non-jokes, I hope you noticed that, even thought I put effort in making it not obvious for some reason.
 
 

 
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