Mr. Fight The Power wrote,

Perhaps you are unaware of the FCC, MPAA film ratings, video game ratings, the inability to rent porn at any major video rental outlet, massive zoning ordinances prohibiting the filming, distribution, and watching of porn, or ordinances prohibiting the running of strip clubs?

I do not feel that you are far off in saying that pornography is "necessary", but I feel that the constant moralist pressure against sexuality, and the resulting shame, repression, and fetishism is the principle cause of it.

boagie wrote:

Society at large seems to have decided that men and women and the sexual act are not to be given value,other than the fulfilment of immediate gratication.

boagie wrote,

a population that tolerates pornography to the level this society does,is a society without guiding principles,without a moral system.

I do not believe however that there is a solution to the problem in the near future.

A done deal perhaps,only I suspect because there is no one at the helm accept business.You both are very familar with nilhism, so you know that the only things of meaning or value are those things which have been given those attributes.Society at large seems to have decided that men and women and the sexual act are not to be given value,other than the fulfilment of immediate gratication.There is a intimation here to I think by association,that children are not to hold their traditional value--------that is debatable I know.

What does poronography do,or infer about the natural relationship between men and women.In some cultures which tend to be considered to harsh,this is a real concern.Lets face it the well being of society is not even a consideration.I think you are right pythagorean,a population that tolerates pornography to the level this society does,is a society without guiding principles,without a moral system.

Very good point, boagie, we seem to be reduced to almost the level of animals.

Ha! What else can we be?

Mr. Fight the Power,

I can't help but notice that you have made a glaring and ridiculous assumption (that may be the reason why you didn't catch my argument). You say that "Smut can only become institutionalized (grow) when regulations or repression is lacking". This statement can only be made through complete ignorance of the history of government prohibition of desired peaceful behaviors. Certainly the regulation of alcohol during the prohibition did little to hinder the desire for alcohol. One cannot doubt the growth of drug use during our wonderful "War on Drugs."

The government is hardly the point, however, since it is symptomatic of the greater division between varying moralities within society. There is, on one side the shame of tradition, on the other is the nature of man and the freedom to pursue this nature.

I don't believe anyone here is denying that sexuality is natural, but it probably is also true that it is natural for the individual to take what he wants from the weak.Do you wish this debate to be considered from man's purely animal nature.

It is said in many spiritual traditions,man does not become until he is born from the heart,in other words until compassion conditions his animal nature.I think this is indicative of a higher consciousness then that of animal consciousness.Pornography is pure animal nature unconditioned by a higher consciousness.The people involved are more inclined to be simply objects of this animal passion or lust.

I appreciate you do not express your subjective impression about my sexual orientation or attitude,as the topic is not of a personal nature.I afford you the same consideration.

I agree with you however, that surpession of the natural expression of sexuality will lead to unnatural behaviours.I think to, the natural expression of sexuality on an animal level will reduced ones psychology to an animal level----a healthy animal mind you,just less than a human expression.

History does not support such altruistic behaviour in general,though there are no doubt instances of such altruism toward the weak.

So,you would take your tutorial from the observation of our animal cousins------yes? Even in the animal world there are characteristics of species both physical and behavioural.We are talking about the human animal, with its characteristics of behaviour.We can, and often do behave in a common manner characteristic to the larger defination of animal.Reason and compassion however are in whatever degree,are part of the defination of humanity---I do however agree, it is found elsewhere in the animal world.

Well,your not exactly wrong,your in the right neighbourhood you might say.Are you familar with Schopenhaur's,The World As Will And Representation? The will according to Schopenhaur is blind,senseless,it is as a hunger which drives you.This will is ultimately the essence of all things and in all things it is as a blind directive.It certainly is blind in the animal world where instincts in their seasons rule.With reason we can control our own reprodution,but that is like a trick played at nature expense.

As Darwin pointed out early in the origin of species,nature cares not for the individual but for species.Sexuality largely over rules the individuals will, it will have its way,natural or unnaturally, it is not an intellectual decision.These are some of the reasons it is not to difficult to consider it base,base in the sense that it is all powerful in its elemental nature,only with man is it conditioned with reason---on rare occasions.

I am aware of what is coming out of neurology,there will be some mind blowing stuff just down the road.You could be right about compassion being elemental, but it would seem a conflict of common sense but then again,so what.Perhaps it is something in degree,developed in common with all social animals.

Yes,you are correct for the most part,we do have a somewhat diffirent appreciation of the nature of the will and the sexual drive.As I stated earlier it is blind to anything accept it own fulfilment.If you are a strong healthy individual and young,its almost like the hormones are running the show.We know what drummer the young are marching too,its the same tune played through the eons.Actually try and imagine a world without the sex game,wouldn't it be a bore.One thing in closeing,you seem concerned over elemental or base drives,there are many of them, including your breathing and heartbeat.These however play a supportive essential background role, the sexual drive is right out front,it has its investment in today,and when your horny,its doing the driving.Your right though,an unreasonable expression of public sexuality I do find offensive.

I think we are frustrating our friend Pythagorean, in his desire to consider mans ailenation being due to post modernism leading to a nihilistic existence.Where would you Mr Fight the power,like to see this go,through what method would you like to address the topic,or are we on track in your opinion?

Boagie wrote, Perhaps we could focus first on ailenation