*shudder*

Actually, I go to Germany quite often, because my daughter and her German husband live there. I rather like Germany, and far from ever having any trouble there, I have always had a great time. It´s the fascists, like certain so-called "Christian" fanatics, that need to be locked up -- and people show whether they´re fascists by they way they live. People on this board can decide for themselves whether I´m "juvenile" and "insensitive" Personally, I hardly think you´re in a position to be labeling anyone on this forum "juvenile" and "insensitive".

Actually, I go to Germany quite often, because my daughter and her German husband live there. I rather like Germany, and far from ever having any trouble there, I have always had a great time. It´s the fascists, like certain so-called "Christian" fanatics, that need to be locked up -- and people show whether they´re fascists by they way they live. People on this board can decide for themselves whether I´m "juvenile" and "insensitive" Personally, I hardly think you´re in a position to be labeling anyone on this forum "juvenile" and "insensitive".

You will find fascist in all walks of life.

Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Atheism, Socialism. It is not the preserve of any one particular group.

Fascism: Any program for setting up a centralized autocratic national regime with severely nationalistic policies, exercising regimentation of industry, commerce, and finance, rigid censorship, and forcible suppression of opposition ; any tendency toward or actual exercise of severe autocratic or dictatorial control (as over others within an organization)
Source: Webster´s Third New International Dictionary.

Webster´s Third New International Dictionary says that "objective" is "publicly or intersubjectively observable or verifiable esp. by scientific methods:independent of what is personal or private in our apprehension and feelings."

Acheik, since you were the one that was asking for objectivity, it would only seem logical that you must first demonstrate that you are objective, and that from your position of objectivity, you can then require objectivity from others.

Can you sincerely tell me that you think you are objective when you deny that among pentecostal-evangelicals there are people with "any tendency toward or actual exercise of severe autocratic or dictatorial control (as over others within an organization)"?

Perhaps you are one of those that accept as perfectly natural, concepts such as the union of church and state(I believe church and state should be separate) If this is the case, then I will understand why you think that no pentecostal-evangelicals are fanatics.

(You may have noticed by now that blanket condemnations are not my style -- nor blanket approvals!!! - very important!!!)

"I don't care how someone worships as long as they don't hurt anyone."

I agree. But you start using religion to push a particular political agenda, and you´ve got yourself something that I consider to be potentially very dangerous.

You may disagree, and I respect that opinion, even if I cannot possibly share it.

You will find fascism in all walks of life.

The thing that bothered me about the video wasn't that it was of a lot of very dedicated adults engaging in these activities of their own free will. The people in the video were children.

It is difficult to know if they have any other choice, or what the result would be if they didn't want to participate in these evangelical activites. Can they just walk out of Jesus Camp? If they do, where do they go? If they go home, how would the parents react? Would they be considered evil for that?

I realize it reads a lot into it, but that was my reaction to it.

"Fanatics maybe"

Dividing the world up into two camps, those who believe in their religion(good, of course) and those who don´t(not good, of course) -- only means they´re "fanatics maybe"?

I believe in tolerance, but tolerating what I consider to be intolerance is where I draw the line.

I have observed and studied considerably more in my lifetime, of pentecostals and evangelicals than what is shown in the short trailer. It is this observation and reflection that have led me to hold the opinions I hold.
I have no doubt that many of these people feel they are doing the right thing, and have good intentions. But I certainly think that their methods go against critical thinking, and purposely, as Kirk Cameron (another individual with whom I disagree) said on his website, "by-pass the intellect". Now, if you think it´s fine for parents to be submitting their children to these harangues and this indoctrination, then there´s not much more to be discussed with regard to this subject, is there?
We disagree. Full stop.

Piram wrote:

"Fanatics maybe"

Dividing the world up into two camps, those who believe in their religion(good, of course) and those who don´t(not good, of course) -- only means they´re "fanatics maybe"?

I believe in tolerance, but tolerating what I consider to be intolerance is where I draw the line.

I have observed and studied considerably more in my lifetime, of pentecostals and evangelicals than what is shown in the short trailer. It is this observation and reflection that have led me to hold the opinions I hold.
I have no doubt that many of these people feel they are doing the right thing, and have good intentions. But I certainly think that their methods go against critical thinking, and purposely, as Kirk Cameron (another individual with whom I disagree) said on his website, "by-pass the intellect". Now, if you think it´s fine for parents to be submitting their children to these harangues and this indoctrination, then there´s not much more to be discussed with regard to this subject, is there?
We disagree. Full stop.

What? You have your last say and then tell me the subject is closed? How convenient for you.

Let me clarify, again, as you are missrepresenting me. I don't like fanatics either, but I don't think calling these people fascists with a nazi symbol being displayed is correct. I am not dividing the world into black and white - you are. This is what I take issue with.

Also, they have every right to train their children how they see fit. As long as they are interacting with the outside world - that would be the area I would question. David Koresh took this to the extreme and created a world within a world and there I would agree they were fascists of a sort. Are these people like David Koresh? I can't tell from the video, apparently you can - maybe that's the problem.

There are plenty of groups that are tightly wound within themselves such as the mormons, Jehovah witness, the Amish, Scientologists, etc., etc. Do we call them all fascists and try to lock them up? You're treading on dangerous ground with that attitude. You're creating your own Nazi hell.

Are you going to take away my right as a parent to train up my child? Would you lock me up if I didn't allow them to watch TV, go to movies, read Harry Potter, etc, etc? (although I personally do) Would I be forced to allow them to play video games all day long and attend punk rock events (which I do anyway) to satisfy your perception that I'm a good parent and by giving this so-called freedom to my child? The point is, it's your perspective which you are saying I must abide by to be a good parent. Just how far do you go with that?

Piram wrote:

"Fanatics maybe"

Dividing the world up into two camps, those who believe in their religion(good, of course) and those who don´t(not good, of course) -- only means they´re "fanatics maybe"?

I believe in tolerance, but tolerating what I consider to be intolerance is where I draw the line.

I have observed and studied considerably more in my lifetime, of pentecostals and evangelicals than what is shown in the short trailer. It is this observation and reflection that have led me to hold the opinions I hold.
I have no doubt that many of these people feel they are doing the right thing, and have good intentions. But I certainly think that their methods go against critical thinking, and purposely, as Kirk Cameron (another individual with whom I disagree) said on his website, "by-pass the intellect". Now, if you think it´s fine for parents to be submitting their children to these harangues and this indoctrination, then there´s not much more to be discussed with regard to this subject, is there?
We disagree. Full stop.

What? You have your last say and then tell me the subject is closed? How convenient for you.

Let me clarify, again, as you are missrepresenting me. I don't like fanatics either, but I don't think calling these people fascists with a nazi symbol being displayed is correct. I am not dividing the world into black and white - you are. This is what I take issue with.

Also, they have every right to train their children how they see fit. As long as they are interacting with the outside world - that would be the area I would question. David Koresh took this to the extreme and created a world within a world and there I would agree they were fascists of a sort. Are these people like David Koresh? I can't tell from the video, apparently you can - maybe that's the problem.

There are plenty of groups that are tightly wound within themselves such as the mormons, Jehovah witness, the Amish, Scientologists, etc., etc. Do we call them all fascists and try to lock them up? You're treading on dangerous ground with that attitude. You're creating your own Nazi hell.

Are you going to take away my right as a parent to train up my child? Would you lock me up if I didn't allow them to watch TV, go to movies, read Harry Potter, etc, etc? (although I personally do) Would I be forced to allow them to play video games all day long and attend punk rock events (which I do anyway) to satisfy your perception that I'm a good parent and by giving this so-called freedom to my child? The point is, it's your perspective which you are saying I must abide by to be a good parent. Just how far do you go with that?