Hi Thom welcome to the forum, (i like your quote-it can feel like that sometimes). It seems you have alot of interesting qualifications. Enjoy your stay.

I've aways wondered if it is that humans can recognize their own stupidity that makes us seem so stupid. We call stupid animals unfit, the animals don't have the mental capacity to save the stupid animals from their own stupidity, and they die or don't breed. Humans consider it immoral not to save the stupid people from their own stupidity, and foster a culture of stupid.

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 AM ----------

oh yeah, and welcome

cheers,
Russ

Sadly, I agree with you.

Welcome.

"We call stupid animals unfit, the animals don't have the mental capacity to save the stupid animals from their own stupidity."

We are also animals, well I thought we were anyways.

This reminds me of a story when this dog pulled his "owner" all the way down this road after he suffered a heart attack while on a walk. If the dog had not acted he would have died right there but the dog sensing something wrong drug the man quite a ways to a point where he was spotted by some passing motorists.

What's my point? Well perhaps animals are smarter than we give them credit and perhaps they understand something unique about existence. It might be compassionate to save a life or rescue someone in danger but perhaps that is not the "best" case. We save dumb humans but chances are they will turn around and do something dumb again where as if we exercised survival as being the dominate decision maker then perhaps we might weed out the dumb in humanity? Just a theory although quite a bitter one at that.

If you answer my question I will answer yours...Do you call your self Tom, or Thom???

I would have made a great doctor... Except I never would have learned anatomy since The thought of a dead human body is repulsive to me...I can butcher deer, and have no doubt that I could do anything necessary to preserve human life; not because life is always the desirable end, but because, if people can be preserved long enough to say good bye, make their peace, and accept their fate, it is better all around...I am extremely cool under fire, and when it is over it is over, and I don't carry the stress with me...But it was better that I was an ironworker, and perhaps, that does not qualitfy me for anything, but I do philosophy none the less...When you get older you naturally hold forth... Having read many books, and thought much I feel some, though not absolute confidence... Something else...I am able to think abstractly, as your experience with medicine shows to be a problem...I don't think everyone should think abstractly, and no one should think abstractly all the time...The reason many people are philosophers is that they could only think abstractly and not in any other fashion...Most were complete failures at relationships...

"If you answer my question I will answer yours...Do you call your self Tom, or Thom???"

Well I go by Thom but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if you called me Tom.

I am a bit confused by your request since I wasn't aware that I had asked a question. Unless you mean the qualify for philosophical discussion which wasn't really a question but more of a way to slip in some humbleness after talking about my education. I didn't want to give the impression that since I have studied a little human anatomy that I am somehow able to be philosophical. The two are rather separate and you can look at the human body in so many ways where two people can have completely two separate opinions about how amazing the human body is. Some will immediately come to the conclusion that a "god" must have been involved in the making of the human organism because of it's seemingly complex and elegant working but I however have (once again a negative outlook) that the human body really isn't as perfect as it might seem. The system is riddled with weaknesses that a simple failing of one of them will kill the organism in a short period of time. If I were to design something I would like to take the time to put in some redundancies to counter act failing systems but biology doesn't have such a motivation, it simply just gets by with what works or doesn't work.

So yeah, anyways that is why I responded with that remark. It's not really that important and I probably wouldn't have ever mentioned it because it's just an subjective opinion.

Thom; if you cannot look at the human form and contemplate our end, our beginning, and our meaning, like Hamlet with who was it; Horatio, then there is no philosopher in you...You have to remember that you are on the clock...When you are young you can swing between feeling that you will not live forever, and fearing that you will... Time is not a constant, but it drags when you are young, and as you age it goes faster until it falls as though off a cliff... Can I tell you that you have no time to waste... If you cannot waste youth you have no youth to waste... It is yours, do as you wish, but only if you have some goal, some ambition, some motive should you concentrate your efforts... To live is to have regrets..Do it my way, or do it your way and you will have regrets...Be certain of it, that you are damned if you do or don't...But whether you work, or flirt, or flitter your youth away means not half as much as the lesson you take from it, from all things... Never leave school... When you know all they can teach then teach all that you know... In between try to learn something new... But look at me, the uneducated rabble lecturing you, who may already have more formal education than myself...I am like that skin job in Blade Runner talking about the things I have seen...And I have seen a lot, but we all have, and it is possible to spend years making sense of a scene that takes only moments to play out...Now, I have read a lot of philosophy, and in only a few notable exceptions, philosophy is proof of a miserable existence...You do not have to be a philosopher to be miserable, but it helps...Every one is miserable; but philosophy is one of the few things that truly helps, and only seldom hurts....So good luck with it...What do you have for a day job???

Hi Fido thanks for the continued encouragement.

See I don't really feel the need to philosophize about death or what comes there after. For me I have already run the idea through my head and the conclusion I come to is this. I can only do fun things so many times before they are no longer fun. What do I mean by that? Well, if there is life after death then I would eventually hate that existence so much I would pray for an end after a while. So I have come to the conclusion that I am completely and utterly fine with this one life or existence and when the body stops functioning at the point it sustains my consciousness I go willingly into oblivion. If anything else should happen, I shall beg for destruction.

So for me I have answered my own meaning to life. To have and seek as much fun and pleasure I can at any expense, even if it costs me my own life. Because I will not take with me anything not even knowledge to the next life. If I do it will be nothing but irrelevant information. But how can I say this for certain? I can't but going back to my earlier description, that I can only enjoy something so much before it no longer is enjoyable. Eternity is long but the list of things that make you happy is not.

The only curse we have in life is not being utterly content or happy with it.

~thom

I don't care if there is life after death...For too many, life is not life before death but death before death... Look at all the Christian self denial... Fine if you want to deny yourself, but when your self denial is forced upon all other people it is hardly a voluntary sacrifice...Look at the self negation, the continuation of Protestant self negation, in Capitalism...Okay; fine for the capitalist because that brings him nearer to God...But eventually it was not the capitalist living in self negation but the whole society suffering want for the luxury of the idle rich... Ideals, expecially those we let rule us without thought, or criticism, live while we die...Forget later, before we die we all need to find how to live in such a way as not killing our fellow human beings, or worse, to make them wish the only life they have, Away...Ideals are wonderful in moderation...Where are they found in moderation???

And what next life??? If it will have no meaning then, without any one to share meaning with, what meaning can your pleasures hold now... Just as with all morality, it is an obligation, that we do not injure others in the process of having our pleasure...If you should pess away your life that others gave you at great price, and all those in you past for whom you are the great goal, of continued existence spit into the teeth of death, then trust me on this; you have done them an injury... If you are hanged, your whole line is hanged...If you live in honor, all who bore you and come from you share honor... We live alone our subjective lives...Objectively we exist together sharing the same lives with the chickens, the lions, and the larvae... Make the best of what you have without hurting others, and helping as you can, and you will find that in this life, where the thought has meaning, you will deserve some reward, and for that life, honor is the only reward...It is not fair..It is life...

Fido, I'm not really sure where you are going with all that. I see the first part of your response as depicting where religious or certain beliefs themselves can cause suffering on others if not handled with some kind of respect for others. I get that and I'm not in conflict with it. However; I do no matter how I live will be a burden on society because of just existing I take up resources and space which I wouldn't do if I didn't exist. I'm not saying life is better off without me but I'm saying you can never be completely generous towards life. An absolute generous person dies from their generosity. You can maybe argue that or deny it but a person can never be absolutely generous and still live.

The second part of your comment response almost completely loses me. Life should be lived by creating honor and not happiness? or happiness of others is more important that one's own happiness? Well it is all and well to be compassionate towards other beings weather human or non-human but that comes with a price. No matter how you want to explain it, but to be honorable you must sacrifice some part of yourself to do so. Some will not use the word sacrifice nor would they use any negative terminology to explain their actions when dealing with kindness or compassion. But let's be realistic here, to give yourself over to help people means you are giving up your time to do other things that might just as equally bring you happiness if not more happiness. That sounds rather selfish but it's a true statement. That is why we use a term like honorable to describe a person willing to give up apart of themselves for others happiness.

So once again I am not in conflict with you however; I do not naturally feel that every person is deserving of the exact same treatment nor kindness. That might sound rather bitter but here is my reasoning. If person A was a very nice and generous person who was thoughtful towards others and I was equally kind and considerate to them then that is one thing. But what if person B was exactly the opposite and is mean at every turn, are you seriously thinking they deserve the same treatment as person A? It would be an insult to person A in my opinion because behavior should be met with just due response. Being kind to an unkind person might change their attitude but it could also encourage their negative behavior as well.

So I believe in giving people their just due respect and kindness. I meet everyone with a clean slate sort of speak and will be kind and respect them. But as soon as I see them not being kind or respectful then they are not deserving of kindness nor respect.

Would Gandhi agree with me? No, but look at what happened to him and his ultimate kindness?

Why worry about dying from generosity when you are going to die anyway??? You talk like if there is life after life, you would wish it away... Better wish while you can... The only way life lives on is in another form, as if a tree root grows through your rib cage and a squirrel eats the nuts of the tree... It probably is oblivion, but it is also a barrior our minds and consciousness cannot pass... So do not live this life out of fear or expectation of another... Live for the meaning you find now... In my opinion the best meaning is the moral one, of living without hurting self or others, and to contemplate much and do little...Stupidity does, and wisdom thinks...Try not to be so quick to judge others...I think you are right to give respect until you see a person you cannot respect... Always try to consider a person's past in the judgement of who they are today... As hard as it may be, especially with those you may not well respect; try to form a relationship with them...When you show an interest in their lives and well being, I expect they will open up to you...Just remember that you cannot get involved and remain unattached...If you find you cannot respect some one, it may be that they have serious issues you might well have left buried..

"Why worry about dying from generosity when you are going to die anyway??? You talk like if there is life after life, you would wish it away..."

I agree with you Fido, but I am not a hundred percent convinced either way. It seems very logical that once our body dies it is an end to our consciousness too. But honestly we cant say for certain that it is absolutely that way. We just don't have any direct reference to say with certainty. I like to stay a little open minded about it but as far as punishment or reward goes, I really don't think there is such a scenario. Either way I am not worried or concerned about dying, it is living that is more challenging at times.

In a sense we do have a reference... People die and blow away in the wind, and animals eat their meat and bones until nothing is left. There is your reference, no life, no meaning, no being... Because we live without ever being able to account for that life we cannot imagine death...It takes a different spiritual outlook to conceive of zero, nothing, or death... We only have to know that we do not have to conceive of death to be dead, but being alive without account we cannot imagine death, really, and so we substitute for death another form of life, a hope... What cruel hope is it that rewards or punishes...Is that not the most utter bunk??? God with his little portable scales and his trick bag... The obvious is the only possibility, that death is exactly what it seems, nothing by another name... Nothing waits, so let us live life for honor in this place according to our own understanding and logic... Let us live and let live... Let us celebrate life without expectation, knowing the good we do and the wrong we do will last long beyond our day, but we will be gone, and if wrong we do, then our names would be cursed, if our names were known...

I always get annoyed when I hear or see a religious person giving their "glory" to god. I wouldn't ever want to take that away from them, they should have every right to do it but I find it rather insulting. I'll try to point out what I mean.

I remember when Rosa Parks passed away and Condoleezza Rice gave a speech. In her speech she said something to the effect of. The reason Rosa refused to give up her seat was because she was infused with the power of Jesus. It was because of Jesus.

Now that is incredibly insulting towards humanity. To me it is similar to saying, as people, we are incapable of rationally seeing things when they are wrong or unjust, but instead we need another force, a holy force, to recognize when things are wrong.

I simply can not and will not accept that we can't understand injustice. Give credit where credit is due. Rosa was not infused with the power of Jesus, she acted because she felt it was the right thing to do. Taking that away from her just makes her a mindless puppet.

I went to Rosa Parks funeral, almost..I and my daughter waited in line for nearly three hours to see that wrinkled up little hero... And I have a picture to prove it...

Justice is an essential part of life, and given any kind of choice, people will reach out for it...And those who are willing to lay it on the line for justice or any moral good deserve all honors... In the past people were killed for that small thing called honor...If you could wrap up every moral good and tie a bow on it that bow would be called honor... People need it...They stand for their honor and their honor stands for them... If you took a man's property, you took his honor, and he would risk hell or death to retrieve it...I once heard of a French Morrocan who had his Fez lifted by a passing American in street car... That Muslim chased that street car through the streets of Paris for blocks to get his Fez back and kick that American's white ass...He came with his hat, and he wasn't going home without it...