Heraclitus' dynamic reality

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Reply Thu 28 May, 2009 06:10 pm
Things which are put together are both whole and not whole, brought together and taken apart, in harmony and out of harmony; one thing arises from all things, and all things arise from one thing.

All is becoming; all is opposites.


It seems to me Heraclitus' model of reality is much closer to that which is being revealed by quantum mechanics and such, than anything produced by Plato or Aristotle.

His philosophies line up with my conviction that the phenomenal world cannot be properly described as being, only that all phenomenon are becoming.

Does the dynamic model imply that our consciousness is wrapped up in the fabric of reality?
 
Extra Gravy
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 06:54 am
@rhinogrey,
How could our consciousness not be "wrapped up in the fabric of reality"?
 
VideCorSpoon
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 07:29 am
@Extra Gravy,
 
jgweed
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 08:35 am
@rhinogrey,
Heraclitus is quoted as saying "the real constitution of things hides itself (Kirk, 211), and that the cause of beings is strife or war (polemos) between opposites,and "all things are in motion" despite appearance, and appears to reject monistic explanations held by his predecessors, yet seems to prefer fire over the others.

Kirk and Raven make the point that his central discovery appears to be "that natural changes of all kinds are regular and balanced, and that the cause of this balance is fire" or perhaps logos or true connexion of things.

Unfortunately, we do not have sufficient evidence, even second-hand, to understand how he reconciled a dynamic view of the world with what appears to be his first principle.
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 10:03 am
@rhinogrey,
rhinogrey;65452 wrote:
Things which are put together are both whole and not whole, brought together and taken apart, in harmony and out of harmony; one thing arises from all things, and all things arise from one thing.

All is becoming; all is opposites.


It seems to me Heraclitus' model of reality is much closer to that which is being revealed by quantum mechanics and such, than anything produced by Plato or Aristotle.

His philosophies line up with my conviction that the phenomenal world cannot be properly described as being, only that all phenomenon are becoming.

Does the dynamic model imply that our consciousness is wrapped up in the fabric of reality?


Hi,

Heraclitus is one of my favorites. I blog about him along with Laozi (Lao Tzu), and Itzhak Bentov.

I too see many connections between Heraclitus and Quantum Physics. Of particular interest here would be the similarities of Heraclitus constant changing, folded world with David Bohm's Wholeness and Implicate Order interpretation of Quantum Theory.

While the fragments of Heraclitus are limited, they provide enough insight to draw parallels to Eastern Philosophy, in particular Daoism, and by combining all elements, one can create quite an interesting description of life and the universe.

Rich

---------- Post added at 11:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 AM ----------

VideCorSpoon;67649 wrote:


Hi,

Thanks for your exposition. I enjoyed reading it.

I wanted to point out that there are numerous interpretations of what is the meaning of quanta creation and annihilation, and depending upon how you look at it, it Quantum Physics may still fully fit into Heraclitus' world.

Quantum interpretations are numerous, and always being debated - just as Philosophical theories. It is interesting, however, looking at the parallels between Heraclitus, Daoism, and Quantum Physics, as many have.

Rich

---------- Post added at 11:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 AM ----------

jgweed;67662 wrote:
Heraclitus is quoted as saying "the real constitution of things hides itself (Kirk, 211), and that the cause of beings is strife or war (polemos) between opposites,and "all things are in motion" despite appearance, and appears to reject monistic explanations held by his predecessors, yet seems to prefer fire over the others.

Kirk and Raven make the point that his central discovery appears to be "that natural changes of all kinds are regular and balanced, and that the cause of this balance is fire" or perhaps logos or true connexion of things.

Unfortunately, we do not have sufficient evidence, even second-hand, to understand how he reconciled a dynamic view of the world with what appears to be his first principle.


Hi,

Just to give you my take on Heraclitus:

1) "It hides itself": This is for me quite amusing and enlightening. I first came across this thought, while reading Itzhak Bentov's A Brief Tour of Higher Consciousness, where he posits the possibility, that Life is a Game of Hide and Seek, put together for the enjoyment and amusement of itself. :-)

2) "War": While many interpret Heraclitus as using war as the basis for movement, I prefer to use the term "conflict". That is, the swirling movement from one side to another, and around again. Very similar to the circular movement from Yin and Yang and back again of Daoism.

3) "Motion": This is the primary idea. That everything is constantly changing. Ditto for Daoism.

In so far as reconciling everything, the Logos (or Dao) can be swirling withing itself. Such motion is all around in nature. Starting from nothing, it begins to swirl, creating greater and greater spirals. Some spirals condense and become matter. Other stay less dense and remain energetic. All kinds of movements and spirals. All of this, very similar to Doaism, and even Quantum Physics.

Rich
Rich
 
Mister Carcer
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 11:59 am
@rhinogrey,
rhinogrey;65452 wrote:
Does the dynamic model imply that our consciousness is wrapped up in the fabric of reality?


Could you explain what you mean by consciousness being wrapped up in the fabric of reality?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 02:20 pm
@Mister Carcer,
Mister Carcer;149275 wrote:
Could you explain what you mean by consciousness being wrapped up in the fabric of reality?


Obvious, but excellent question. But you have to admit, it sounds good.
 
Pythagorean
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 03:48 pm
@rhinogrey,
rhinogrey;65452 wrote:

Does the dynamic model imply that our consciousness is wrapped up in the fabric of reality?


If our consciousness were not wrapped up in the fabric of reality there could be no natural laws or intelligible forms in nature and the Cosmos would be a meaningless thing to speak of.

-
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 04:04 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean;149362 wrote:
If our consciousness were not wrapped up in the fabric of reality there could be no natural laws or intelligible forms in nature and the Cosmos would be a meaningless thing to speak of.

-


Well said. And can we not add that "consciousness" itself is also one of these intelligible forms? And that form is also a form?
 
Pythagorean
 
Reply Wed 7 Apr, 2010 05:08 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;149379 wrote:
Well said. And can we not add that "consciousness" itself is also one of these intelligible forms? And that form is also a form?


Each aspect of Cosmos is one indivisible being of which phenomena and souls are wrapped into so that recursions and regresses terminate in an ultimate or absolute unified form.


.
 
 

 
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