The Human Instinct

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William
 
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 02:10 pm
I have mentioned this in a few in my posts as to "man's instinct" and I just wanted to expound on it a little to see what anyone else thinks.


As we observe everything but ourselves on the planet we see an intact program that totally defines that life form. It doesn't matter what it is, from a single celled organism to the Great Ape their purpose is well defined. Now they don't think like we do or I'm sure the Vulture would figure out a way to change his eating habits, or the fly would stay clear of human's bearing fly swatter's. Their live's are pretty much cut and dried. They live harmonious with each other, with a few exceptions, such as the Preying Mantis and the Black Widow Spider, but for the most part everything is harmonious. My question is do you think we have such a destiny? Are we not on a journey to develop that "instinct" so very tattooed in the program of all other life forms?

Can we exist without this so very observable harmonic paradigm that it seems everything else is hooked into. Thanks for considering it, those of you that do.

William
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 02:29 pm
@William,
William;25593 wrote:
As we observe everything but ourselves on the planet we see an intact program that totally defines that life form. It doesn't matter what it is, from a single celled organism to the Great Ape their purpose is well defined.


This isn't going to turn into an Intelligent Design discussion, is it?
 
William
 
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 02:45 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan wrote:
This isn't going to turn into an Intelligent Design discussion, is it?


Let's just see where it goes. I seems like a logical question to me. Now personally I don't think there is a "design" involved that has a beginning, middle and end, pre-programmed kinda thing. Of course I don't know all there is about the universe either. This question was one I gathered from my reasoning and observation. So, having said that, do what you will with it.

William
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 03:29 pm
@William,
William;25593 wrote:
They live harmonious with each other, with a few exceptions, such as the Preying Mantis and the Black Widow Spider, but for the most part everything is harmonious


I disagree with this premise, as would a wildlife biologist. It would be incorrect to say that wolves live harmoniously with deer, or that snakes live in harmony with small rodents.

And what of territorial behavior among virtually all species? Wolf packs will kill other wolf packs that encroach on their turf, as will most primates.

Perhaps I'm missing the point of what you are trying to say....
 
William
 
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 06:09 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan wrote:
I disagree with this premise, as would a wildlife biologist. It would be incorrect to say that wolves live harmoniously with deer, or that snakes live in harmony with small rodents.

And what of territorial behavior among virtually all species? Wolf packs will kill other wolf packs that encroach on their turf, as will most primates.

Perhaps I'm missing the point of what you are trying to say....


Sorry if it was confusing. Wolve's as it relates to wolve's. Snake's as it relates to snakes. Just because we are different races we still are "Earthlings". Protecting one's territory is a survival technique. It should only exist in the "animal" kingdom, but unfortunately it does exist in ours also. But for entirely different reasons. It exist's in ours only because we do not communicate as we should. We are smarter than the wolf and we must realize this planet is for all us as we will learn one day to communicate, trust, and depend on each other. We are the Pack. All of us. There is no other pack to fight. We are it. Yes we are of different races, cultures, faiths speaking different languages. That, hopefully one day will end for we all have one thing in common. This Earth is our home and we all have a right to be here. We just need to learn to get along. That's all. Yea, I know. Easier said than done. Let's just keep our finger crossed and hope we come to our senses before we really screw things up. Once we do that we will begin to harmonize just as the wolf treats another wolf like a wolf. Let's hope we learn as human being's to treat ofther human being's like human being's.

William
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Tue 23 Sep, 2008 09:58 pm
@William,
William;25650 wrote:
Protecting one's territory is a survival technique. It should only exist in the "animal" kingdom, but unfortunately it does exist in ours also. But for entirely different reasons. It exist's in ours only because we do not communicate as we should.


(Let me play grumpy middle-aged man for a moment . . .)

I think it's more complicated than that.
Good communication does not change the fact that we live on an earth with finite resources, and the more of us there are the faster those resources deplete. Our inherent survival instinct compels us to make sure that we get our piece of those resources, and once we have it, to hang on to it. It's pure survival, and it overrides everything else. It is key to our evolutionary survival. It's Darwinism at its most basic level, and hardwired into our very cells.
 
jgweed
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 06:36 am
@TickTockMan,
"That I, considering everywhere/Her secret meaning in her deeds"

writes Tennyson of Nature. Men look at Nature, and see in it either harmony, sweetness and light/ or see it as "red in tooth and claw."

But it is this ability to interpret natural events as Nature that separates man from that which he interprets. To the extent that man provides meaning to the world, man stands apart from it and is able to understand and hence control whatever instinctual (and natural) part he might perhaps share with it.
 
SummyF
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 07:42 am
@jgweed,
Nature is greater than the world in which we live in. And if we decide that humans are greater that the natural settings which we live in. Our purpose is to evolve into a greater species, by knowledge

so my point is human nature/instinct is essence is attempt to understand space and time

Our instinct can be seen as our subconscious, and if we can see humanity as whole with a subconscious. then instinct would evolve into the ability to want to learn.

look at technology, society, and human structure

what is it for?
 
William
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 07:49 am
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan wrote:
(Let me play grumpy middle-aged man for a moment . . .)

I think it's more complicated than that.
Good communication does not change the fact that we live on an earth with finite resources, and the more of us there are the faster those resources deplete. Our inherent survival instinct compels us to make sure that we get our piece of those resources, and once we have it, to hang on to it. It's pure survival, and it overrides everything else. It is key to our evolutionary survival. It's Darwinism at its most basic level, and hardwired into our very cells.


Ok, grumpy middle aged man, Ha. We don't have a clue as to all the resources the Earth has to offer and we won't as long as we are not divinely communicating. The fact that our economic system is base on the rarity of object value is the problem. Once that is eliminated we will be amazed at what we can acconplish. There is so much we "don't" do because it is not "economically feasible". Then change the system and for that to happen there needs to be trust and that can only come from truthful communication.

Communication is everything. Without trust it can never happen forcing us to build barriers that protect ourselves from one another. This is precisely the problem. He who has the "most" rules, when there is enough to go around. Once we stop hoarding and begin to share what the Earth has to offer, we, together will discover, all her resources. Us, being the most important one.

There is so much man can learn once he begins to communicate and for that to occur there must be "divine" communication, such as that communication "between wolves", so to speak. They don't have a problem. We are the ones with the problem.

As long as we are "concentrating" on defending ourselves from one another communication will always have hidden agendas that necessitate the need for guile, wit, strategy and manipulation as the smart overpower the weak that has always led to bloodshed. History is rift with it. We aren't fighting with slingshots anymore.

Einstein said and I am paraphrasing, unless we learn to cooperate rather than compete, the war after the next one will be fought with stones. Actually this is two of his thoughts combined.

We are a divine creation of the universe (God) and are meant to cooperate as one. as we share what the Earth offer's, even us and our individual gifts and talents along with our resources, new and established, so as to allow each and every individual the entitlement they deserve by simply being.

You are right, it is complicated and no one will ever reach those answers we are so desperately searching for. It will be the result of a group effort. That you can count on.

We will begin to communicate instinctively (divinely) as we put the pieces of the puzzle together, bringing a meaning to life of which we cannot even imagine. This will be that "heaven" we so often speak of. That is our reason for being. That is our destiny.

Together we will reach those answers that not only solve the problems that plague us, but also pave the way to a future that will insure tomorrow is better than today. Then we will really begin to hum.

Instinctively, that's what I think.

William
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 03:36 pm
@William,
William;25692 wrote:
as long as we are not divinely communicating.


Explain what this means. Please.
 
William
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 04:09 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan wrote:
Explain what this means. Please.


Divine communication is that communication uttered from one to another from a mind at peace. It has yet to be. In a mind that is riddle with fear, stress, worry and guilt all communication is guarded for self protection. It is the way things are. We "speak for ourself" in such a way that insures our survival. Divine comminication comes from a God consciousness in which we use our minds and the knowledge we have gathered throughout our existence in away the insures our compatibility as we cooperate together for the betterment of the whole. Now what that means, I haven't a clue. It is God guiding us and creating a synergy of the likes that cannot be imagined. It is an existence unknown to us because we are more interested in self than we are of others. It's a survival technique. This reality we have created forces us to think that way.

I know that is a quick answer and providing the reality in which fear can be eliminated is our first step. And to do that we have to eliminate the inequity in the world that is the cause of all the iniquity. Ever single bit of it.

William
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 05:26 pm
@William,
Just a couple more questions from the grumpy middle aged guy:

1) If God is guiding us, why do we need to do anything? Will not "His will"
be done regardless of our meddling or participation (or lack thereof)?

2) Are we all going to have to think alike, as "one mind" to have this divine communication, and to create this Utopian world?
 
William
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 07:17 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan wrote:
Just a couple more questions from the grumpy middle aged guy:

1) If God is guiding us, why do we need to do anything? Will not "His will"
be done regardless of our meddling or participation (or lack thereof)?

2) Are we all going to have to think alike, as "one mind" to have this divine communication, and to create this Utopian world?


Of course not. Each and every person has there own experiences, knowledge, talents and gifts. Unfortunately few get the chance to utilize them because they do not align with what the status quo (society) needs for it's continuation. It is an ease of thinking as this God Consciousness aids you in accessing that you have stored in your mind. To access that consciously is impossible. There is entirely too much stored for that to happen. You will need help. I know. Been there, done that. Peace of mind is not easy to achieve, that is why it is imperative that we set the stage globally that will eliminate the fear, stress and worry that prohibits that divine connection. It is singularly possible, but it requires an enornous amount of faith, which means no fear and in this world it is hard to achieve such a state. The only thing you can do until this global effort succeeds is live in the moment and not, as best you can, allow the past and the future consciously enter that now reality. If you can manage this you will be amazed at how the mind will effortlessly bring what you need to know when you need it to your consciousness. It will blow you away. Just leave it alone it works really good by itself. Nothing works well under stress.

I hope this helped.

William
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 08:49 pm
@William,
William;25784 wrote:
O It is an ease of thinking as this God Consciousness aids you in accessing that you have stored in your mind.


Another question . . .
If God Consciousness is required, where does the Atheist fit in?
 
William
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 09:13 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan wrote:
Another question . . .
If God Consciousness is required, where does the Atheist fit in?


Good question. God is not about religion. He is about life. Religion is the problem in that there are too many interpretations. With a God consciousness there will be the need of none of them. We will be in a sense living that "meaning to life" that all religions are founded upon. Atheism must also adhere to this effort to establish that foundation that will establish peace of mind in all. It doesn't matter if one is Atheist, Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu whatever, this enlightnment will eliminate those barriers that devide us. Any one or group that efforts to malign, subvert or corrupt it will be identified by their screams of protest. That will be the war, if there is one. The proverbial battle between good and evil.

William
 
William
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 09:43 pm
@William,
William wrote:
Good question. God is not about religion. He is about life. Religion is the problem in that there are too many interpretations. With a God consciousness there will be the need of none of them. We will be in a sense living that "meaning to life" that all religions are founded upon. Atheism must also adhere to this effort to establish that foundation that will establish peace of mind in all. It doesn't matter if one is Atheist, Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu whatever, this enlightnment will eliminate those barriers that devide us. Any one or group that efforts to malign, subvert or corrupt it will be identified by their screams of protest. That will be the war, if there is one. The proverbial battle between good and evil.

William


Furthermore let me say this. I want to so much believe no malice in man. In that I feel it is all hubris in that it is all we knew and knew no better. This is my sincere hope. I choose to believe that. Nevertheless if there is as the majority of man unites in this effort and we do begin to communicate divinely, that malicious evil will have no place to hide. I have no idea of what it is like to communicate with another of "God Consciousness" but I can only imagine what that will mean. It will be the uniting of man in ways that could possibly never be understood, It will be a life of unbelievable magnitude. Yet we will be as different as fingerprints as we learn from each other the true meaning of brotherhood. The races will eventually unite and then we will become Earthlings. This is only the beginning. Time to reel me back in. Ha.

William
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Wed 24 Sep, 2008 09:58 pm
@William,
William;25792 wrote:
That will be the war, if there is one. The proverbial battle between good and evil.

William


I'm enjoying your answers. Here's a few more questions:

Who decides what is good and what is evil?
What is good for one is, by general default, evil for another.

This cannot be lumped into the category of "Universal Good or Universal Truth," as this is entirely dependent on perspective.

If we can apply human emotions to animals for a moment . . .
How does the rabbit view the hawk diving toward it with its talons spread?

In human society, killing another human is generally considered evil. However, if that killing is committed for the purpose of preventing the person who is being killed from committing untold atrocities, could the killing be considered good? It would depend upon your point of view.

Even the Samurai, who were generally Buddhists and thereby theoretically opposed to killing, were able to justify this exception.

Let's further say only for the sake of this discussion (I'm not going to say one way or the other what I really believe as it is not relevant at this point), that I am an Atheist. Not only do I not believe in God, I don't believe in ANY type of god, gods, or supreme power of any sort. I believe that we are mere accidents, flukes, of a cosmos that has no beginning, no end, and no creator. Further, I resent those who tell me that I MUST adopt their beliefs, because I am preventing the development of a perfect God Conscious World.

Let's say (again, simply for the sake of this conversation only) I have no interest in "seeing the light," or being "saved," as I am utterly happy right where I am. As a bonus, I'm not going to try to convince anyone else to follow my path.

Am I evil?

If, as you say, I am "identified by my screams of protest," should I be killed because of my beliefs? Or, will the God Conscious people practice what they preach? I am willing to live and let live. Are they? Or is my mere existence an abomination? I think it says somewhere in the Bible that "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

I'm honestly interested to hear your thoughts.

-------
p.s.
I think the last part of this excerpt might interest you. It's rated R, so my apologies if you find the language offensive in a spot or two: http://sparkwords.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/transcript-from-an-excerpt-of-bill-hicks'-"revelations"-performance-at-the-dominion-theater-in-london-september-1993/
 
William
 
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 12:16 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan wrote:
I'm enjoying your answers. Here's a few more questions:

1.>Who decides what is good and what is evil?
What is good for one is, by general default, evil for another.

This cannot be lumped into the category of "Universal Good or Universal Truth," as this is entirely dependent on perspective.

If we can apply human emotions to animals for a moment . . .
2.>How does the rabbit view the hawk diving toward it with its talons spread?

3.>In human society, killing another human is generally considered evil. However, if that killing is committed for the purpose of preventing the person who is being killed from committing untold atrocities, could the killing be considered good? It would depend upon your point of view.

Even the Samurai, who were generally Buddhists and thereby theoretically opposed to killing, were able to justify this exception.

4.>Let's further say only for the sake of this discussion (I'm not going to say one way or the other what I really believe as it is not relevant at this point), that I am an Atheist. Not only do I not believe in God, I don't believe in ANY type of god, gods, or supreme power of any sort. I believe that we are mere accidents, flukes, of a cosmos that has no beginning, no end, and no creator. Further, I resent those who tell me that I MUST adopt their beliefs, because I am preventing the development of a perfect God Conscious World.

Let's say (again, simply for the sake of this conversation only) I have no interest in "seeing the light," or being "saved," as I am utterly happy right where I am. As a bonus, I'm not going to try to convince anyone else to follow my path.

Am I evil?

If, as you say, I am "identified by my screams of protest," should I be killed because of my beliefs? Or, will the God Conscious people practice what they preach? I am willing to live and let live. Are they? Or is my mere existence an abomination? I think it says somewhere in the Bible that "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

I'm honestly interested to hear your thoughts.

-------
p.s.
I think the last part of this excerpt might interest you. It's rated R, so my apologies if you find the language offensive in a spot or two: http://sparkwords.wordpress.com/2008/02/11/transcript-from-an-excerpt-of-bill-hicks'-"revelations"-performance-at-the-dominion-theater-in-london-september-1993/


1. Your question comes from a conditioning that keeps us from understanding either. "Who is to decide"? It will never be the decision of any one, but what we will learn from the many once we allow them to speak. Good is that from which all can, regardless of their lot in life, experience fulfillment and freedom in that state free of fear, worry, stress or guilt. In short, allowes to "live" and grow. The individual "decides what that is without being forced to think differently to satisfy the wants of another.

2. I never, ever go there. I am not an animal. I can assume to know, but to equate that behavior to justify man's will always be off limits to me by choice. It serves no purpose but to justify "animal like" behavior in man that is due to entirely different reasons.

3.> The mind "abused" is capable of justifying the most horrific atrocities. To kill one so afflicted is a necessary evil if we are unable to connumicate with that mind. In most cases all we can do is either eliminate it, chemically disable it, or lock it away from the reality that created it. In any case, none solve the problem. Death is the most vicious in that it is motivated by an evil itself, revenge, in and of itself, a human frailty.

The only solution is to eliminate the "abuse" that caused that mind to go "haywire". We will never no on an individual basis what that is, for the accused don't know themselves. They are also innocent victims who haven't a clue why they think the way they do. We "will" eliminate the abuse all together once we as human beings treat other human beings as human beings.

So to answer your question, the situation should have never existed. For we are all culpable in that we do not communicate as human beings. Once we do we will eliminate those reasons those minds went "haywire". Until we do, I'm afraid you ain't seen nothing yet as to what the mind of madness is capable of.

4. Don't take it personally. I am just like you. I cannot follow the dictates of others. But let me also state I am not a selfish person in any respect for I have realized he reward one gets from considering others before self. My happiness is not at the expense of others. I find joy in aiding others to find meaning to their lives as best I can in this reality. That gives me a joy that is hard to describe, in mine. A meaning that has nothing to do with egotistical attainments of self achievement. If I excel in any given endeavor, I feel it is imcumbent on me to aid others to excel in that same field. In that respect we all benefit as we perfect it together for all to benefit. The screams of protest will come from those whose "blind ambition" render's them unfeeling to those they have taken advantage of the attain their status in life. If you are of this ilk, then yes you are evil.

Man is not inherently selfish. He is force to be to survive in the reality we have created. It is time to change that reality. And if we do it right, no one should sacrifice. If you desire more than you merit, you "take" from another that what he needs to fulfill his life. This creates status, that creates selfishness, that forms the ego, that seeks power, that needs control, that justifies inequity that sustains that power, that creates animosity, envy, hate and bloodshed as a consequence of those you took from.

I said nothing about seeing the light or being saved. These are your words as you relate what I have to say to those religious interpretations. Please don't go there because you are at odds with those very interpretations. Hear the words themselve and debate on the merit of the words only, please. Thanks for you respectful comments.

William
 
TickTockMan
 
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 12:49 pm
@William,
Outstanding, William. It's nice to see a well reasoned response to some slippery issues.

William;25847 wrote:
4. Don't take it personally. I am just like you. I cannot follow the dictates of others. But let me also state I am not a selfish person in any respect for I have realized he reward one gets from considering others before self. My happiness is not at the expense of others. I find joy in aiding others to find meaning to their lives as best I can in this reality. That gives me a joy that is hard to describe, in mine. A meaning that has nothing to do with egotistical attainments of self achievement. If I excel in any given endeavor, I feel it is imcumbent on me to aid others to excel in that same field. In that respect we all benefit as we perfect it together for all to benefit. The screams of protest will come from those whose "blind ambition" render's them unfeeling to those they have taken advantage of the attain their status in life. If you are of this ilk, then yes you are evil.


I'm hearing some echoes of Buddhism here. Are you familiar with the Four Noble Truths and associated Buddhist teachings?

Respectfully,
Tock
 
William
 
Reply Thu 25 Sep, 2008 01:40 pm
@TickTockMan,
TickTockMan wrote:
Outstanding, William. It's nice to see a well reasoned response to some slippery issues.

I'm hearing some echoes of Buddhism here. Are you familiar with the Four Noble Truths and associated Buddhist teachings?

Respectfully,
Tock


Thank you for such a compliment. I am not a "fan" of any, for that, in my opinion, would bias my thinking. Yet, I feel by listening to them all we can arrive at a truth that will eliminate the need for any of them. I think my reasoning ascribes to all of them. I have heard much of the wisdom of the East and if you don't mind let me peruse it a little to see if I can gather what you feel are "echoes". I think I know before I do, but let me brush up if you don't mind. But feel free to offer your comments in the meantime.

Again thanks for such a generous compliment,

William
 
 

 
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