If I Were God

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Krumple
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 07:51 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;173623 wrote:
Existence. God. themselves. others. Wrong is wrong.


Not sure why I carry out this conversation with you. As you clearly do not even know what I am even saying. Wrong is wrong is not a definition nor even a subjective point of view. I think you have been told too many things that you simply can not reason anything outside that. Your own argument above completely negates the previous statement of yours when it comes to my argument.

Amperage;173572 wrote:

unless they don't have laws too, then no. Also, this again falls into the category of if God is real, then they have a law written on their hearts whether they know it or not.


Yeah another one of those claims that is without any evidence or support. Written on their hearts is a completely made up concept. It has no basis. Something that you have heard over and over and just assume it is the case but have never analyzed it to see what you are even saying. It's just another rehash of the argument that there is objective moral values that everyone is aware of, but that is not the case.

Amperage;173572 wrote:

God's reprimand takes place within our hearts. The reprimand we receive from God is removing ourselves from the blessings He desires to bestow upon us. It would be similar being away from someone you love. The reprimand is being away from that person and hopefully doing what you can to be with them.


I have no idea what you are even talking about here. In what way is this experienced? Give me an example because to me it just sounds like more make believe as a way to control your behavior. "You better do this or else you won't get anything from god." Which is what I am not even talking about to remind you again. So you are proving my own point with this comment. If you don't follow the rules god will remove his love, his blessings his what ever. Which is a carrot on the stick approach to get you to do something for a reward.

Amperage;173572 wrote:

As far as I can tell the world still exists...


Okay, killing everyone in the flood. Which is completely unnecessary and irrational behavior.

Amperage;173572 wrote:

Why are you different from me? Why is it no two people are the same?


Are you trying to argue here that what is morally good for one person is not morally good for another person because they are not the same?

Amperage;173572 wrote:

why would you be able to determine them? There are many things which objectively are but can't be determined. For example, Jack the Ripper. We may never be able to determine who he really was, but I don't think anyone doubts he/she existed.


Are you serious? First you say that they are written on your heart. Now you say that they are objective but can't be determined. Then you give an analogy of comparison of identity without identity. This one argument has three fallacies all wrapped up in it. You are getting really good at pulling out fallacies. I am not even sure I should even bother with any more of this.

Amperage;173572 wrote:

Would you be willing to risk the multitudes of people who won't do good "without any driving force" and would a loving parent truly be called loving without providing a "driving force" when they know something is best? My point is not about forcing but giving people a reason to evaluate something beyond what they normally would and then hopefully do what's right because they want to and desire to do so.


You keep returning to the parent analogy which I have already pointed out three times now is a flawed analogy. You couldn't even tell me what was morally wrong in just a few examples. Yet you want to claim that you would be able to know when you have done something wrong so you could correct it? This is circular reasoning.

Amperage;173572 wrote:

Who says you have to wait until death to know you've done wrong? I feel convicted when I do something wrong within my soul.


You might feel that way, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

Amperage;173572 wrote:

And I don't agree with those theists. As I said in another thread, one ought not be a Christian out of some fear, be it real or not, but out of love, hope, faith, and an experience of the truth they find through it.

Christians ought to tell people of the joy, love, and blessings they've received and they have experienced and out a genuine desire for others to experience the same.


Well shouldn't they already know this since it is written on their hearts? Seems a little strange that since they are already theists that they should be able to easily pick up on the dos and don't yet why are so many not figuring that out? I think I know why, because it is all just made up as we go along. There is no objective morals, that is why they can't be pinned down. There is no truth about god, that is why there are so many thousands of religions.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 08:10 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;173644 wrote:
Not sure why I carry out this conversation with you. As you clearly do not even know what I am even saying. Wrong is wrong is not a definition nor even a subjective point of view. I think you have been told too many things that you simply can not reason anything outside that. Your own argument above completely negates the previous statement of yours when it comes to my argument.
yes, instead of address my points, address me as a person.



Krumple;173644 wrote:
Yeah another one of those claims that is without any evidence or support. Written on their hearts is a completely made up concept. It has no basis. Something that you have heard over and over and just assume it is the case but have never analyzed it to see what you are even saying. It's just another rehash of the argument that there is objective moral values that everyone is aware of, but that is not the case.
Of course I've analyzed it. Again you would rather just dismiss what I say than face it. When you know something is wrong how do you know it, especially a "controversial" issue? You feel it. You know it in your heart. You may have reasons behind why you feel that way but it remains that down to your core you know it.




Krumple;173644 wrote:
I have no idea what you are even talking about here. In what way is this experienced? Give me an example because to me it just sounds like more make believe as a way to control your behavior. "You better do this or else you won't get anything from god." Which is what I am not even talking about to remind you again. So you are proving my own point with this comment. If you don't follow the rules god will remove his love, his blessings his what ever. Which is a carrot on the stick approach to get you to do something for a reward.
How is this experienced? It comes down to an unsettled being. One can feel things aren't right. A guilty conscience if you will. The feeling of wronging a friend. It's not about God "giving" you something. It's about being in a right relationship with Him. Just as beyond anything your wife may give you, it is the relationship you have devolved with her that you desire.



Krumple;173644 wrote:
Okay, killing everyone in the flood. Which is completely unnecessary and irrational behavior.
a. everyone was not killed b. you have no way of knowing what is and what is not necessary or irrational is such a sense.



Krumple;173644 wrote:
Are you trying to argue here that what is morally good for one person is not morally good for another person because they are not the same?
No what i'm trying to argue is that our subjective prism can skew what is objective to the point that what one may think can be wrong. Just like the view of an object through water. What is objective is the object as it really is. What is subjective is our sight of the object through the water. As we get in a right relationship with God, ideally, our view will become more clear; more closer to the real.



Krumple;173644 wrote:
Are you serious? First you say that they are written on your heart. Now you say that they are objective but can't be determined. Then you give an analogy of comparison of identity without identity. This one argument has three fallacies all wrapped up in it. You are getting really good at pulling out fallacies. I am not even sure I should even bother with any more of this.
They are written on our hearts. But that doesn't mean we can read what's there. Especially if we are living wrong. See my previous analogy of the object in water. You want to see my arguments as inconsistent but they are not.



Krumple;173644 wrote:
You keep returning to the parent analogy which I have already pointed out three times now is a flawed analogy. You couldn't even tell me what was morally wrong in just a few examples. Yet you want to claim that you would be able to know when you have done something wrong so you could correct it? This is circular reasoning.
the parent analogy is not flawed no matter how many times you say it is. You have not provided anything substantial which would show that it is. And I have given reason after reason for why it is. I mean obviously there will be difference, but the dynamic is certainly analogous. I could have answered your questions but didn't see the need, in fact, I thought they were rhetorical questions.



Krumple;173644 wrote:
You might feel that way, but I have no idea what you are talking about.
Then I challenge you to honestly seek God with all your heart soul and mind....I think you might be surprised what you find.



Krumple;173644 wrote:
Well shouldn't they already know this since it is written on their hearts? Seems a little strange that since they are already theists that they should be able to easily pick up on the dos and don't yet why are so many not figuring that out? I think I know why, because it is all just made up as we go along. There is no objective morals, that is why they can't be pinned down. There is no truth about god, that is why there are so many thousands of religions.
They do know it. They just ignore it. They have tricked themselves. They have moved away from God and the view of the object through the water has gotten completely skewed.
 
Neil D
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 08:26 pm
@Krumple,
I have this saying I made up: "Since no thing defines its own creation. It cannot be held responsible for its nature".

Of course there is the variable of how one is brought up. But I think there are certain innate characteristics that we are born with. Such as a tendency towards good or evil. And we are what we are, independent of the choices we make. Although a persons actions will most often match their nature.

So if an individual is not totally responsible for his/her nature, then what is the defining factor.

I guess what I'm getting at is that if there is a God, then it would define the nature of each person. And God would be responsible for creating evil.
If that is the case then God understands why evil is required.

Without God i guess innate characteristics would be a random thing.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 08:46 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;173654 wrote:
yes, instead of address my points, address me as a person.


I was addressing both.

Amperage;173654 wrote:

Of course I've analyzed it. Again you would rather just dismiss what I say than face it. When you know something is wrong how do you know it, especially a "controversial" issue? You feel it. You know it in your heart. You may have reasons behind why you feel that way but it remains that down to your core you know it.


No I don't know when I am wrong. I don't know when I have done something wrong. If I did, I would never had needed to be taught it. In fact I have not even been taught everything so I can still be wrong and not know it. I am never aware that I have committed a wrong until it is pointed out to me.

Amperage;173654 wrote:

How is this experienced? It comes down to an unsettled being. One can feel things aren't right. A guilty conscience if you will. The feeling of wronging a friend. It's not about God "giving" you something. It's about being in a right relationship with Him. Just as beyond anything your wife may give you, it is the relationship you have devolved with her that you desire.


I have never had a guilty conscious. I have no idea what that even is. I have never regretted any decisions I have ever made. Have I made mistakes? Yes, plenty, perhaps even too many. They are experience to go on, but do I know what to do now? No. I still am not convinced that I have it right and probably never will because no one does. It is all just guess work. Sure religion tries to dictate that it knows, but it doesn't.

Amperage;173654 wrote:

a. everyone was not killed b. you have no way of knowing what is and what is not necessary or irrational is such a sense.


So we are arguing semantics now?

Amperage;173654 wrote:

No what i'm trying to argue is that our subjective prism can skew what is objective to the point that what one may think can be wrong. Just like the view of an object through water. What is objective is the object as it really is. What is subjective is our sight of the object through the water. As we get in a right relationship with God, ideally, our view will become more clear; more closer to the real.


Are westboro baptists closer to god or further away? Give me some examples of who is closer and who is not.

Amperage;173654 wrote:

They are written on our hearts. But that doesn't mean we can read what's there. Especially if we are living wrong. See my previous analogy of the object in water. You want to see my arguments as inconsistent but they are not.


Yeah living wrong, but written on your heart but you can't read what's there until you are close but you don't know if you are living wrong and thinking you are close. Circular reasoning.

Amperage;173654 wrote:

the parent analogy is not flawed no matter how many times you say it is. You have not provided anything substantial which would show that it is. And I have given reason after reason for why it is. I mean obviously there will be difference, but the dynamic is certainly analogous. I could have answered your questions but didn't see the need, in fact, I thought they were rhetorical questions.


Then you fail to understand the premise.

Amperage;173654 wrote:

Then I challenge you to honestly seek God with all your heart soul and mind....I think you might be surprised what you find.


I have absolutely no reason to. I am not in any need for an invisible friend. I am perfectly content with my existence. You are asking me to chase after something for which I have no desire for nor need of. You might think it is needed but I am content where I am.

Amperage;173654 wrote:

They do know it. They just ignore it. They have tricked themselves. They have moved away from God and the view of the object through the water has gotten completely skewed.


Yeah and I can say that religion is the skewed point of view. I see religion demean people and give them lower self esteem. I've seen it completely destroy families and insight hatred even genocide. Not something that I want to be apart of.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2010 09:06 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;173680 wrote:
No I don't know when I am wrong. I don't know when I have done something wrong. If I did, I would never had needed to be taught it. In fact I have not even been taught everything so I can still be wrong and not know it. I am never aware that I have committed a wrong until it is pointed out to me.
You honestly don't know when your wrong? Or when you've done something wrong? If someone has to point out your wrongdoings to you then I suppose I'm glad that we do have laws in place. I would say most people have an innate sense of right and wrong at least some of the basic tenants, without which society could not function. Don't lie or murder and preserve the offspring, those sorts of things.



Krumple;173680 wrote:
I have never had a guilty conscious. I have no idea what that even is. I have never regretted any decisions I have ever made. Have I made mistakes? Yes, plenty, perhaps even too many. They are experience to go on, but do I know what to do now? No. I still am not convinced that I have it right and probably never will because no one does. It is all just guess work. Sure religion tries to dictate that it knows, but it doesn't.
Honestly? You've never done something you felt bad about? Said something in anger....nothing?

How do you know if any of your statements are correct? Since you aren't convinced you have it right and never will....and it's all just "guess work"?


Krumple;173680 wrote:
Are westboro baptists closer to god or further away? Give me some examples of who is closer and who is not.
I have no clue who they are. Example: Billy Graham is, IMO, closer to God than Joseph Stalin.



Krumple;173680 wrote:
Yeah living wrong, but written on your heart but you can't read what's there until you are close but you don't know if you are living wrong and thinking you are close. Circular reasoning.
What is circular? I give you a sheet of paper written in Japanese. You may or may not be able to read it correctly....however the more you study and learn Japanese the more clear it will become.




Krumple;173680 wrote:
Then you fail to understand the premise.
by all means, enlighten me.



Krumple;173680 wrote:
I have absolutely no reason to. I am not in any need for an invisible friend. I am perfectly content with my existence. You are asking me to chase after something for which I have no desire for nor need of. You might think it is needed but I am content where I am.
not knowing when you do things wrong and not feeling guilty after you do seem like 2 good reasons to me, but ultimately it will be up to you. If you want to know the truth it's there waiting to be found...
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 12:10 am
@hue-man,
Short and straight to the point :

Choices imply needs...no needs, no behaviour, no choices...
Of course...then again, you chose what you must !
(God cannot be otherwise...:listening:)
 
Krumple
 
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 11:44 am
@Amperage,
Amperage;173691 wrote:
You honestly don't know when your wrong? Or when you've done something wrong? If someone has to point out your wrongdoings to you then I suppose I'm glad that we do have laws in place. I would say most people have an innate sense of right and wrong at least some of the basic tenants, without which society could not function. Don't lie or murder and preserve the offspring, those sorts of things.


Yeah well obviously you don't know when you are being dishonest because here is one example. You act like you have always known right from wrong as if you were never taught anything. I find it humorous that you still try to maintain this argument. You have been lied to so much that you defend the lie rather than reason it out. Sure as an adult you might be able to reason out something being right or wrong, but you don't need to because you have been dictated to, (perhaps all your life) so you believe that it is innate within you. A type of brainwashing effect and religion is very good at it.

Amperage;173691 wrote:

Honestly? You've never done something you felt bad about? Said something in anger....nothing?


No, but have I ever been angry? Yes, but feel bad about it? No. It was justified anger. Perhaps if it would have been unjustified, then maybe I would have felt bad about it. Anger isn't always a bad thing.

Amperage;173691 wrote:

How do you know if any of your statements are correct? Since you aren't convinced you have it right and never will....and it's all just "guess work"?


It might start off as guess work but it is backed up with reasoning and evidence.

Amperage;173691 wrote:

I have no clue who they are. Example: Billy Graham is, IMO, closer to God than Joseph Stalin.


Not sure who they are? Well they are a southern church that spreads nothing but hate crime. They picket soldiers funerals and hold signs saying that their son was meant to die because the US supports homosexuality.

YouTube - westboro baptist church protests

But the point is, sure you can blame the people as being the problem, but Christianity is the catalyst.

Amperage;173691 wrote:

What is circular? I give you a sheet of paper written in Japanese. You may or may not be able to read it correctly....however the more you study and learn Japanese the more clear it will become.


First of all I can already read Japanese. But what the heck are you talking about?

Amperage;173691 wrote:

not knowing when you do things wrong and not feeling guilty after you do seem like 2 good reasons to me, but ultimately it will be up to you. If you want to know the truth it's there waiting to be found...


Yeah the truth can be discovered, but I know for certain it not within Christianity.
 
prothero
 
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 02:40 pm
@Krumple,
Perhaps, the divine brings some degree of order, value and experience unto a world which without the divine persusion or process would be primordial chaos and the formless void. "to be" is to have some independent being or power. the universe is composed of independent actualites which do not always follow the divine influence. The world engages in a creative advance into novelty with real risk and real reward. If there is a god it is not a god of power (a divine ruler who imposes and punishes) but a god of love ( who persistently, patiently, and persuasively offers up possiblities for creation of value, intensity of experience, and an adventure into novelty.

Was Jesus god as power or god as loving persuasion and example? The divine triumphs but not without struggle and suffering, not without risk and reward.

Sorry an unusally strong religious impulse today.:bigsmile:
 
Krumple
 
Reply Sun 6 Jun, 2010 03:26 pm
@prothero,
prothero;173878 wrote:
Perhaps, the divine brings some degree of order, value and experience unto a world which without the divine persusion or process would be primordial chaos and the formless void.


Yeah perhaps, but there is absolutely no evidence or method that would determine it. So why speculate because I could say just the opposite. Since a god does not exist the universe actually is a process of chaos moving towards order through natural processes.

The funny thing is, I don't even believe that the universe is orderly in any way. Sure it might appear like it is, and you can give examples of things that seem to respond to ordered method, however an aspect of order does not universally display order. I see the universe as incredibly chaotic. So I don't even hold that a god is making the universe orderly, because the universe itself is not orderly.

prothero;173878 wrote:

"to be" is to have some independent being or power. the universe is composed of independent actualites which do not always follow the divine influence. The world engages in a creative advance into novelty with real risk and real reward. If there is a god it is not a god of power (a divine ruler who imposes and punishes) but a god of love ( who persistently, patiently, and persuasively offers up possiblities for creation of value, intensity of experience, and an adventure into novelty.


Once again, there is absolutely no way to determine this and nothing that suggests that there is a god as you have stated. In fact there is evidence that supports just the opposite of that conclusion. It's nothing different than a life guard claiming that he has love for all of the people on the beach but as soon as someone is drowning, he just sits there and watches them drown. He doesn't do anything to help them at all but is considered the life guard?

The equivalent is that god is placing a being into a position to chose something, and that choice has a consequence of either damnation or heavily reward. This dichotomy is not a display of love at all, but just the opposite. For a god to actually live up the the definition of being a loving god, would not split people at all for any reason. Meaning that no matter how wicked or evil you were, you would end up in heaven along side anyone else. You wouldn't have to chose anything or behave in any way, you are automatically accepted regardless of who you are. That would be loving, but a huge majority of theists would not accept that.

prothero;173878 wrote:

Was Jesus god as power or god as loving persuasion and example? The divine triumphs but not without struggle and suffering, not without risk and reward.


I don't think so. Jesus had a lot of negative things to say. Like one being that he is not a bringer of peace. He has come to set family members against each other. Meaning that you should place god before your loved ones if they are not accepting god. Put to death all those who do not obey the lord? Yeah that sounds loving to me.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 04:52 am
@Krumple,
Quote:

I don't think so. Jesus had a lot of negative things to say. Like one being that he is not a bringer of peace. He has come to set family members against each other. Meaning that you should place god before your loved ones if they are not accepting god. Put to death all those who do not obey the lord? Yeah that sounds loving to me.


Your one sad dude Krumple. I don't know who it is you have to forgive, but I hope you find out.
 
KaseiJin
 
Reply Fri 13 Aug, 2010 09:24 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs wrote:

Your one sad dude Krumple. I don't know who it is you have to forgive, but I hope you find out.


Quite the contrary, I might say. I think it would be far more a definition of being a 'sad dude,' as though lost without hope, to consider that you will live forever in the present state of misled theist-based religious belief system nonsense !!

Get real, now !!
 
Pronounce
 
Reply Fri 20 Aug, 2010 06:30 pm
I have to wonder if the only thing anyone gets out of these discussions is mad. If so then that might be a good thing is it could help to promote good health through isometric exercise.

I'd like to confirm previously mentioned points that religion is a societal institution and because our societies are man-made the religions born out of them are man-made. Much of what is being argued here is specifically Christian religious dogma and doctrine, and the Christian concept of God.

These debates make me want to investigate and know how much total time and energy (man hours) is spent over arguing Christian dogma and doctrine compared to other doctrine and dogma. Just as any publicity is good publicity, any debate is good debate because it promotes the topic. If you really want to kill off a religion you have to make it unimportant and unworthy of discussion.

Also I wonder if some of this is due to Christians attacking other beliefs, or not. Maybe we can relate all debate back to the Crusades (East vs West) or the Age of Enlightenment (modernism). Either way the argument is mostly about culture and less about a Christian God.

<smacking forehead with palm> I know... what we're really debating.... You anti-Christian Westerners are just pissed off because Constantine got rid of your favorite Olympian deity.

But seriously if our culture didn't have a Christian god there would be another deity or spirit to take it's place. The fact that the majority of people in our culture believe there is something more than just nature gives most atheistic scientists heartburn.

BTW Have you ever noticed how elitist some people who argue against a Christian god are? Seriously. It's as if they want everyone to accept their theories as gospel fact. The way some talk I'm wondering if they aren't secretly desiring that the masses should worship their theories. But if that happened we'd just be trading the Olympian gods for the Christian god for the logic-reasoning god. All in all it still comes down to a man-made deity with dogma and doctrine to argue about.
 
 

 
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