Existence. God. themselves. others. Wrong is wrong.

unless they don't have laws too, then no. Also, this again falls into the category of if God is real, then they have a law written on their hearts whether they know it or not.

God's reprimand takes place within our hearts. The reprimand we receive from God is removing ourselves from the blessings He desires to bestow upon us. It would be similar being away from someone you love. The reprimand is being away from that person and hopefully doing what you can to be with them.

As far as I can tell the world still exists...

Why are you different from me? Why is it no two people are the same?

why would you be able to determine them? There are many things which objectively are but can't be determined. For example, Jack the Ripper. We may never be able to determine who he really was, but I don't think anyone doubts he/she existed.

Would you be willing to risk the multitudes of people who won't do good "without any driving force" and would a loving parent truly be called loving without providing a "driving force" when they know something is best? My point is not about forcing but giving people a reason to evaluate something beyond what they normally would and then hopefully do what's right because they want to and desire to do so.

Who says you have to wait until death to know you've done wrong? I feel convicted when I do something wrong within my soul.

And I don't agree with those theists. As I said in another thread, one ought not be a Christian out of some fear, be it real or not, but out of love, hope, faith, and an experience of the truth they find through it.

Christians ought to tell people of the joy, love, and blessings they've received and they have experienced and out a genuine desire for others to experience the same.

Not sure why I carry out this conversation with you. As you clearly do not even know what I am even saying. Wrong is wrong is not a definition nor even a subjective point of view. I think you have been told too many things that you simply can not reason anything outside that. Your own argument above completely negates the previous statement of yours when it comes to my argument.

Yeah another one of those claims that is without any evidence or support. Written on their hearts is a completely made up concept. It has no basis. Something that you have heard over and over and just assume it is the case but have never analyzed it to see what you are even saying. It's just another rehash of the argument that there is objective moral values that everyone is aware of, but that is not the case.

I have no idea what you are even talking about here. In what way is this experienced? Give me an example because to me it just sounds like more make believe as a way to control your behavior. "You better do this or else you won't get anything from god." Which is what I am not even talking about to remind you again. So you are proving my own point with this comment. If you don't follow the rules god will remove his love, his blessings his what ever. Which is a carrot on the stick approach to get you to do something for a reward.

Okay, killing everyone in the flood. Which is completely unnecessary and irrational behavior.

Are you trying to argue here that what is morally good for one person is not morally good for another person because they are not the same?

Are you serious? First you say that they are written on your heart. Now you say that they are objective but can't be determined. Then you give an analogy of comparison of identity without identity. This one argument has three fallacies all wrapped up in it. You are getting really good at pulling out fallacies. I am not even sure I should even bother with any more of this.

You keep returning to the parent analogy which I have already pointed out three times now is a flawed analogy. You couldn't even tell me what was morally wrong in just a few examples. Yet you want to claim that you would be able to know when you have done something wrong so you could correct it? This is circular reasoning.

You might feel that way, but I have no idea what you are talking about.

Well shouldn't they already know this since it is written on their hearts? Seems a little strange that since they are already theists that they should be able to easily pick up on the dos and don't yet why are so many not figuring that out? I think I know why, because it is all just made up as we go along. There is no objective morals, that is why they can't be pinned down. There is no truth about god, that is why there are so many thousands of religions.

yes, instead of address my points, address me as a person.

Of course I've analyzed it. Again you would rather just dismiss what I say than face it. When you know something is wrong how do you know it, especially a "controversial" issue? You feel it. You know it in your heart. You may have reasons behind why you feel that way but it remains that down to your core you know it.

How is this experienced? It comes down to an unsettled being. One can feel things aren't right. A guilty conscience if you will. The feeling of wronging a friend. It's not about God "giving" you something. It's about being in a right relationship with Him. Just as beyond anything your wife may give you, it is the relationship you have devolved with her that you desire.

a. everyone was not killed b. you have no way of knowing what is and what is not necessary or irrational is such a sense.

No what i'm trying to argue is that our subjective prism can skew what is objective to the point that what one may think can be wrong. Just like the view of an object through water. What is objective is the object as it really is. What is subjective is our sight of the object through the water. As we get in a right relationship with God, ideally, our view will become more clear; more closer to the real.

They are written on our hearts. But that doesn't mean we can read what's there. Especially if we are living wrong. See my previous analogy of the object in water. You want to see my arguments as inconsistent but they are not.

the parent analogy is not flawed no matter how many times you say it is. You have not provided anything substantial which would show that it is. And I have given reason after reason for why it is. I mean obviously there will be difference, but the dynamic is certainly analogous. I could have answered your questions but didn't see the need, in fact, I thought they were rhetorical questions.

Then I challenge you to honestly seek God with all your heart soul and mind....I think you might be surprised what you find.

They do know it. They just ignore it. They have tricked themselves. They have moved away from God and the view of the object through the water has gotten completely skewed.

No I don't know when I am wrong. I don't know when I have done something wrong. If I did, I would never had needed to be taught it. In fact I have not even been taught everything so I can still be wrong and not know it. I am never aware that I have committed a wrong until it is pointed out to me.

I have never had a guilty conscious. I have no idea what that even is. I have never regretted any decisions I have ever made. Have I made mistakes? Yes, plenty, perhaps even too many. They are experience to go on, but do I know what to do now? No. I still am not convinced that I have it right and probably never will because no one does. It is all just guess work. Sure religion tries to dictate that it knows, but it doesn't.

Are westboro baptists closer to god or further away? Give me some examples of who is closer and who is not.

Yeah living wrong, but written on your heart but you can't read what's there until you are close but you don't know if you are living wrong and thinking you are close. Circular reasoning.

Then you fail to understand the premise.

I have absolutely no reason to. I am not in any need for an invisible friend. I am perfectly content with my existence. You are asking me to chase after something for which I have no desire for nor need of. You might think it is needed but I am content where I am.

You honestly don't know when your wrong? Or when you've done something wrong? If someone has to point out your wrongdoings to you then I suppose I'm glad that we do have laws in place. I would say most people have an innate sense of right and wrong at least some of the basic tenants, without which society could not function. Don't lie or murder and preserve the offspring, those sorts of things.

Honestly? You've never done something you felt bad about? Said something in anger....nothing?

How do you know if any of your statements are correct? Since you aren't convinced you have it right and never will....and it's all just "guess work"?

I have no clue who they are. Example: Billy Graham is, IMO, closer to God than Joseph Stalin.

What is circular? I give you a sheet of paper written in Japanese. You may or may not be able to read it correctly....however the more you study and learn Japanese the more clear it will become.

not knowing when you do things wrong and not feeling guilty after you do seem like 2 good reasons to me, but ultimately it will be up to you. If you want to know the truth it's there waiting to be found...

Perhaps, the divine brings some degree of order, value and experience unto a world which without the divine persusion or process would be primordial chaos and the formless void.

"to be" is to have some independent being or power. the universe is composed of independent actualites which do not always follow the divine influence. The world engages in a creative advance into novelty with real risk and real reward. If there is a god it is not a god of power (a divine ruler who imposes and punishes) but a god of love ( who persistently, patiently, and persuasively offers up possiblities for creation of value, intensity of experience, and an adventure into novelty.

Was Jesus god as power or god as loving persuasion and example? The divine triumphs but not without struggle and suffering, not without risk and reward.

I don't think so. Jesus had a lot of negative things to say. Like one being that he is not a bringer of peace. He has come to set family members against each other. Meaning that you should place god before your loved ones if they are not accepting god. Put to death all those who do not obey the lord? Yeah that sounds loving to me.

Your one sad dude Krumple. I don't know who it is you have to forgive, but I hope you find out.