Creationism works, Atheism does not

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EmperorNero
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 04:31 am
@Poseidon,
A interesting piece of information I came across recently. Slavery was ended by a re-kindling of Christian morality in the British empire in the 1800-hundreds. Have you ever wondered how, since only 3% of slaves to the Americas went to the US, ending slavery in the US would have ended slavery to the Americas altogether?
The answer is that slavery was ended by the British putting a stop to it, out of Christian principles that had a revival in that time.
Interestingly, slavery went on by non-Christian slave traders in the east of Africa, to Turkey and Arabia, and was too stopped by British intervention.
What have atheists ever done for humanity?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 09:19 am
@Poseidon,
Poseidon;26013 wrote:
This is an existantial argument from functionalism.


What dictionary are you reading? If your later argument is a form of existentialism?

Poseidon;26013 wrote:

If you believe the basic tennets of theology, that life after death is the reward of good people, then we will live in a good world.


This is why there are more theists in prisons than atheists? I guess atheists must just be better at getting away with crimes.

Poseidon;26013 wrote:

If you accept that your death is the end of you, then you have no reason at all to not destroy everything in a crass attempt to live just a little bit longer.


No, why would destroying everything make you live longer? You have a very ignorant world view if you actually believe that is true.

Poseidon;26013 wrote:

Seeing as though, very roughly speaking, our world (mostly) does advance, and our lives do improve, due to the goodness of others, one can only conclude that Creationism is better than Atheism, regardless of which is true or not.


Goodness of others? Like priests who molest children? Your statement is a gross generalization that is not based in any fact. There are bad people on both sides as well as good ones.

Poseidon;26013 wrote:

And seeing as though creationism is functional, whereas atheism is dysfunctional, we can only conclude that Creationism is THE TRUTH.


Seriously? Thanks for the laugh. If people actually believe that statement is true, my outlook on humanity has dropped even further.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 12:17 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;100782 wrote:
A interesting piece of information I came across recently. Slavery was ended by a re-kindling of Christian morality in the British empire in the 1800-hundreds. Have you ever wondered how, since only 3% of slaves to the Americas went to the US, ending slavery in the US would have ended slavery to the Americas altogether?
The answer is that slavery was ended by the British putting a stop to it, out of Christian principles that had a revival in that time.
Interestingly, slavery went on by non-Christian slave traders in the east of Africa, to Turkey and Arabia, and was too stopped by British intervention.
What have atheists ever done for humanity?


The trans-Atlantic slave trade was also instituted with the help of Judeo-Christian doctrine.

As if there aren't any atheists who help their fellow man. I suppose atheist scientists and doctors don't count for anything. Forget what atheists have ever done for humanity; what have you ever done for humanity?! Before you judge a whole group of people, judge yourself.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 12:19 am
@hue-man,
hue-man;100845 wrote:
The trans-Atlantic slave trade was also instituted with the help of Judeo-Christian doctrine.


Hi hue-man,
so without Christianity there wouldn't have been slavery? Slavery might have been justified with Christian principles. But you can justify anything with Christian principles if you try hard enough. That doesn't really say much about Christianity. And as your type tends to say: slavery has always existed.
So you are yelling at a guy who is bringing food to the poor: "Why didn't you bring more, you horrible person?". He's doing something, isn't he?
I suppose muslims traded slaves because of their Judeo-Christian doctrine. And they treated them even worse because of their Judeo-Christian doctrine.

hue-man;100845 wrote:
As if there aren't any atheists who help their fellow man. I suppose atheist scientists and doctors don't count for anything. Forget what atheists have ever done for humanity; what have you ever done for humanity?! Before you judge a whole group of people, judge yourself.


It's undeniable that atheists are less involved in charity. Atheism is really just a way of feeling enlightened without any effort.
Of course atheists do stuff like being doctors. Nobody is denying that. But what have they done for humanity? Not because they are people, but because they are atheists.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 12:32 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;100952 wrote:
Without Christianity there wouldn't have been no slavery?
So you are yelling at a guy who is bringing food to the poor: "Why didn't you bring more, you horrible person?".


What the hell are you talking about?! I didn't say anything about yelling at a person for bringing food to the poor, and I didn't say that there would be no slavery without Christianity. If you can't understand my point then that's your problem.

EmperorNero;100952 wrote:
I suppose muslims traded slaves and treated them even worse because of their Judeo-Christian doctrine.


Once again, you must be arguing with someone else, because I didn't say or imply that slavery started with Christianity. I said that Judeo-Christian doctrine was used to support the trans-Atlantic slave trade as well. Am I right or wrong?

EmperorNero;100952 wrote:
It's undeniable that atheists are less involved in charity. Of course atheists do stuff. What have they done for humanity? Not because they are people, but because they are atheists.


For starters, there are no where near as many atheists as there are Christians (though the numbers of secularists are growing more and more), so I would expect for them to be less involved in charity. Secondly, who said that charity was the number one value for everyone? You should understand that being a conservative libertarian. Last but not least, secular scientists and their naturalistic, skeptical, empirical, epistemic philosophy has contributed greatly to the well being of the human species.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 12:51 am
@hue-man,
hue-man;100955 wrote:
What the hell are you talking about?! I didn't say anything about yelling at a person for bringing food to the poor, and I didn't say that there would be no slavery without Christianity. If you can't understand my point then that's your problem.


Okay, lets reset and debate atheism. No hard feelings. Technically I am an atheist too.
I was saying that African slave trade in both in west and east Africa had been put a stop to by the British because of a revival of Christian principles in that time. For example the explorer Livingston was highly motivated by ending African slavery. You seem to disagree with that or say that it was also Christianity that started slavery in the first place. Please elaborate.

hue-man;100955 wrote:
Once again, you must be arguing with someone else, because I didn't say or imply that slavery started with Christianity. I said that Judeo-Christian doctrine was used to support the trans-Atlantic slave trade as well. Am I right or wrong?


As I said in the edit of my last post: Slavery might have been justified with Christian principles. But you can justify anything with Christian principles if you try hard enough. That doesn't really say much about Christianity itself. And it's different than something we do because of Christian principles. And as your type tends to say: slavery has always existed.

hue-man;100955 wrote:
For starters, there are no where near as many atheists as there are Christians (though the numbers of secularists are growing more and more), so I would expect for them to be less involved in charity.


Of course I meant per capita. While I don't have exact numbers on who does how much charity, I think you don't disagree that atheists do less of it. If you disagree that Christians do more charity then tell me. The "be good" part from "don't believe, just be good for no reason" seems to get left out.

Secondly secularism has nothing to do with atheism. They are ideologies that often go together, but Christian priests might be secularists, and atheists might want their "religion" be enshrined by the state.
I argue for Christianity, I'm an atheist, but I'm not a secularist, go figure... ;-)

I personally believe that a majority of self-proclaimed atheists are not secularists.
Wanting crosses of war memorials is not secularism.

hue-man;100955 wrote:
Secondly, who said that charity was the number one value for everyone? You should understand that being a conservative libertarian. Last but not least, secular scientists and their naturalistic, skeptical, empirical, epistemic philosophy has contributed greatly to the well being of the human species.


I didn't say charity is the number one value, it's an example.
Of course atheists have done good stuff, nobody is claiming they do nothing.
But neither secular scientists or naturalistic, skeptical, empirical, epistemic philosophy are particularly atheist.
Those are views that atheists like to ascribe as their own.
But, for example, wouldn't you say that a disproportionately greater number of atheists believe in global warming, so being skeptical isn't really a atheist trait.
 
evenflow
 
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2009 01:59 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;100952 wrote:

Atheism is really just a way of feeling enlightened without any effort.


I could say the exact same thing about religion.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2009 11:54 am
@evenflow,
Aedes;31961 wrote:
Just because theology can be diverse, in certain conversational contexts it is pretty obvious that common Christian ideas are the reference..


Theology and common Christian ideas are often quite different. As I recall, the idea was that if a person accepts the theology of theism, that Creationism is self-evidently the superior theory over evolution. But I do not see how we can accept such an assertion unless we conflate theology and natural science, which, while popular, is a strange thing to do considering that the ubiquitous theologians did not consider them to be the same field of study.

EmperorNero;100782 wrote:
Have you ever wondered how, since only 3% of slaves to the Americas went to the US, ending slavery in the US would have ended slavery to the Americas altogether?


That 3% figure is the number of slaves shipped. What one must recall is that slaves sent elsewhere in the Americas, to Brazil and the Caribbean, typically died soon after arrival - the result being that more slaves were shipped to these places to replace the dead.

While in the Caribbean and Brazil it was cheaper for slave owners to simply let the slaves die of starvation and over-exertion and then have more brought, in the North American colonies it was more cost effective to care for one's slaves and allow them to procreate.

That 3% figure does not represent total slave populations.

EmperorNero;100782 wrote:
The answer is that slavery was ended by the British putting a stop to it, out of Christian principles that had a revival in that time.


Sort of. It is true that Abolitionists used Christian principles to oppose slavery, slave-owners and pro-slavery advocates also used Christian scripture in order to advance slavery. Christian "principles" were used by both sides. The deciding factor in popular sentiment was not Christian principles, but the universal human reaction of shame and empathy at the plight of so many. Popular works like Uncle Tom's Cabin had as much to do with ending slavery as a popular institution as the Bible.

EmperorNero;100782 wrote:
Interestingly, slavery went on by non-Christian slave traders in the east of Africa, to Turkey and Arabia, and was too stopped by British intervention.
What have atheists ever done for humanity?


Interestingly, slavery went on by Christian slave traders after the end of legal slave trading in the Americas.

To praise Christians at large for ending slavery in some places is silly when we remember that Christians were responsible for beginning institutionalized slavery in those same places.
 
Egosum
 
Reply Thu 19 Nov, 2009 09:15 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
You say that by being atheist we have no reason to truly live but to end, so we should just kill ourselves now.

Yet, theists who say that a life after death will be prodigious, then why don't theists end their life early as well?--since they will have it so good in heaven.

contradiction.

Yet, killing oneself is a "sin" so you won't go to heaven. I see this.

Logically, killing oneself is irrational. Practically, atheists and theists don't kill themselves for a good reason. Suicide is irrational to both. Theists just call it sin, atheists just call it irrational.

Therefore, atheism works.

-----
Just because you're an atheist does not mean you are pro-slavery. Yes, christian emergence did find slavery an evil institution, but so did many atheists. Including the liberators of America's slavery institution. Many of the framers were atheists.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2009 09:45 am
@evenflow,
evenflow;104434 wrote:
I could say the exact same thing about religion.


You could; you would be incorrect.
Religionists are not the ones constantly claiming to be on the side of reason against the forces of irrational faith. Religionists are not the ones claiming to be on the side of "science" versus "unscientific". Religionists are not the ones who think they are enlightened for their faith.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Sun 29 Nov, 2009 06:26 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;106612 wrote:
You could; you would be incorrect.


He would be both correct and incorrect. Atheism and religion can be used as a way to feel superior, or in any way better than others. Both lines of thinking can be egotistically motivated.

Both also offer avenues to real enlightenment.
 
EmperorNero
 
Reply Mon 30 Nov, 2009 05:09 am
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas;106950 wrote:
He would be both correct and incorrect. Atheism and religion can be used as a way to feel superior, or in any way better than others. Both lines of thinking can be egotistically motivated.

Both also offer avenues to real enlightenment.


Yes, that's true.
 
 

 
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