Wisdom and Sorrow

@TickTockMan,

"To escape our illusions is to plunge headlong into chaos!" - Iota

@NeitherExtreme,

NeitherExtreme wrote:

For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.

I was going to quote this, but you beat me to it.

I have thought long and hard about a great many things. And I can testify that such thinking often brings sorrow with it.
Especially if my own private branch of multidisciplinary theoretical eschatology is one of the many fields one likes to dabble in.
Let's just say I certainly hope William is right about it.

Plus I also experience this particular loneliness which comes forth from having great trouble to find the right audience.
For indeed, not many are truly interested in debating abstract matters.
Just try discussing the meaning of life at a birthday party.

@sarek,

Well i guess I'll simply say that the two are of yin and yang. The process of balancing the two is what i think the struggle is.

@Joe,

Joyful participation in the sorrows of the world---Joseph Campbell
"The Power Of Myth."

@Khethil,

"Man can only become alive in the fullest sense when he no longer tries to grasp life, when he releases his own life from the strangle-hold of possessiveness so that it can go free and be itself."

I feel that we are all inevitably a part of this sadness. Though also through analyzing all these things we realize the power of the mind which is our power to change the perceptions of the world around us. Ultimately, possibly those who understand that have all that they need, that we, through our mind, may control how we perceive the world around us, good or bad.
Though.... in reality maybe man wasn't given such a beautiful gift when we were given the intellect that we have, because with good is also brought about bad. Not just in our changing of the economy, war and technology also the power of the mind that we have to analyze just about anything and everything, including life, death, and just the purpose of itself. Possibly we would have been more blessed just to have been the wind, or a tree or rock, never thinking, never examining, just letting go of everything and existing. In theory though we are like the rock, everything that makes us joyful passes as well as everything that makes us sad or angry. All emotions are fleeting, our life here is fleeting and I hope this isn't conveying an entirely dreary mood.

@boagie,

boagie;30937 wrote:

Joyful participation in the sorrows of the world---Joseph Campbell
"The Power Of Myth."

I've not heard that quote before, I love it! So elegant! Thank you.

@Khethil,

I find the sorrow preferable. During times in my life when I am not dealing with that sorrow, I fall into a dullness (my friends and family percieve it as depression). This dullness is marked by the constant feeling of unfulfillment. The "bliss" just doesn't cut it anymore. I think once you become a philosopher, there's no going back.

@Faun147,

Faun147 wrote:

I find the sorrow preferable. During times in my life when I am not dealing with that sorrow, I fall into a dullness (my friends and family percieve it as depression). This dullness is marked by the constant feeling of unfulfillment. The "bliss" just doesn't cut it anymore. I think once you become a philosopher, there's no going back.

I think I'd agree.

One of the things I most strive for in my life is genuine-ness and honesty-with-self. I believe that there is no 'happiness' that I'm 'due'. I believe that part of the honest, raw and 'undeceived' life means accepting and working through depression, pain, sorrow, boredom and all the other aspects of emotion that plague us.

If this means that, after learning I find aspects that bring this sorrow, then so be it. I will not willingly delude myself with fantasies, bitterness or indulgence to dull this supposed-pain.

Now... how successful I am, have been or will become; I suppose time will tell.

Thanks

@jgweed,

jgweed wrote:

"Ignorance is bliss."

On the other hand, from even partial wisdom and knowledge can come tranquility, dignity, and a certain sense of freedom. We suppose Sokrates to have lived unburdened by the heavy weight of sorrow; so too, Epictetus. Nor were such men devoid of courage.
We remark that, despite physical pain and isolation, Nietzsche could attempt to practice a joyful wisdom and tell fellow philosophers to dance.

I agree with this statement the most. I feel like studying philosophy helps me deal with the sorrows of life. No human being can totally escape sorrow. Sorrow is as much a part of life as happiness.

@Khethil,

I do feel momentarily depressed when people cannot understand my logic, but ignorance can make you learn new aspects.

@nameless,

nameless;26677 wrote:

Though I have been well acquainted with Buddhist teachings, I read your link anyway.
I understand the doctrine, but I have some difficulties...

The difficulty may lie partly with your definition of suffering, which is not a Buddhist one. Suffering would be dissatisfaction. Thus even a happy marriage would be suffering, since we would be aware it must come to an end.

Quote:

To say that anyone can through some practice, with some drug, by some effort of will or body can eliminate any of these 'lifesigns', seems downright fraudulent at worst (convince someone that they are a 'sinner' and sell em a savior) or silly at best.

If you delve deeper you'll find there is no fraud. Suffering would not be real. The spacetime universe would not be real. You and I would not be real. It would be because you and I are not real that our suffering is not real. Enlightenment would be the realisation of this truth.

Quote:

To redefine 'suffering' as the pain that comes from attachments is ok inasmuch as you are clear that all that you are 'selling' is a way to, perhaps, avoid some of the pains in life.

It would be a way to avoid all the pains of life forever. This is its principal marketing message.

Quote:

Ask any Buddhist that you meet if he knows anyone that has followed the doctrines and became free of all 'suffering'! I have never heard one.

Ask any Buddhist this question and the first example they'll give will be the Buddha. After that the list is goes on and on.

Quote:

Everything comes and goes.

Not for the mystic. There would be an exception.

Quote:

We are who we are, I have never heard the universe ask our desires!

It doesn't have to ask, we keep telling it. For the Buddhist, without our desires there would be no universe. It would desire that drives the whole thing.

I suspect that in philosophy it is impossible to understand the Noble Truths without an understanding of the metaphysical scheme of Buddhism, since otherwise they seem to be unsupported by logic and to belong to no systematic worldview. But if the ontology of Buddhism is considered, then the truth of the cessation of suffering can be seen to follow ineluctably from the nature of the universe, or from Nature. Of course, whether this ontology correctly describes the universe is another difficult question.

@Khethil,

The measure of melancholy extruded from knowledge depends on how one handles the terrible revelation of mankind's disappointing characteristics. One could either dwell on how easily the worst in us is expelled, or one could be humbled by the equal amount of righteous traits that could show. To each our own is the decision to be bogged down or look on the potential of the bright side. Those without the knowledge of possibilities in the world have the good side told to them, or walk blindly through life, usually via religion.

@Khethil,

Khethil;26550 wrote:

Forgive the morose tone. But I wonder, is there much sorrow in wisdom?

There can be. It depends on the person and their overall outlook and personality, really.

Khethil;26550 wrote:

By an appreciation for the complexities of life's questions, the philosopher must confront difficulty and confusion.

Yes. So?
Sorrow is not required in the face of difficulty and confusion.

Khethil;26550 wrote:

By coming to realize the relative nature of humanity, the philospher struggles to find clarity in the concepts of right and wrong

Not necessarily. I prefer relativity to objectivity, personally. I don't care much for right and wrong. I never struggled to find clarity in the concepts of right and wrong.

Khethil;26550 wrote:

Through grasping, if only for a moment, the realm of possibilites in an unknown-universe, the philosopher's life thus far becomes small

Indeed. This is also not necessarily something one must be sorrowful about. I admit I would enjoy being Supreme Overlord of the Universe but being small is something I can be content with.

Khethil;26550 wrote:

By gaining knowledge of the vast damage done to people; past, present and future potential, the philosopher is saddened at humanity's legacy

For a time, I was upset about that.
I got over it.
There's no point in regretting it, it's much more productive to try to better the legacy, even a little.

Khethil;26550 wrote:

In grasping the subjective nature of knowledge-gained, the philosopher comes to doubt what he thought he knew - doubts moreso all learned thereafter

Also true, but also not necessarily something one must be sorrowful about.

Khethil;26550 wrote:

Upon acknowledging our imperfect state of understanding in the universe, the ground on which the theologan stands suddenly feels less firm

Same as above.

Khethil;26550 wrote:

As youthful arrogance is eventually supplanted by the humility only the most-honest philosopher will embrace, social interraction rewards that achievement by relegating him to the back of the room in favor of those with the loudest voice, most boistrous claims and most arrogantly-stated claims.

Again, not necessarily something that must be sorrowful. I myself have never had a problem being "in the back of the room."

Khethil;26550 wrote:

After digesting the constituent elements, subjective and otherwise, of the lotus, the philosopher suddenly finds that flower not quite as awe-inspiring. It can never match the 'wonder of the unkown'. Much like the virgin, upon experiencing that which was so oft anticipated; yet now has experienced the thing, the magic is gone.

I don't like the unknown. The known is much better, in my opinion.

Khethil;26550 wrote:

Upon urking through the complexities of political structures, interpersonal relationships and sociological phenomena, the philosopher; now imbued with a greater understanding, realizes that not a soul cares to hear it. The personal reward (not the least of which includes the journey itself) remains, yet no capitalization on that knowledge - for others - is to be had.

The personal reward is all I really care about in this case. I'm a curious person, I like knowledge and wisdom.

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