Does philosophy require proof of every claim made?

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richrf
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 09:43 am
@jgweed,
jgweed;67658 wrote:
Philosophising
Is not the whole point of philosophical thinking to supply warrants for its conclusions and perspectives, to appeal to the commonality of reason (in a rather broad sense) for consideration and understanding?


As far as I can tell, every philosopher I have ever read or talked to supplies their own warrants for their conclusions, and there are millions that disagree. So, what is the big deal.

Einstein presented his Special and General Theory of Relativity without any proof. Just some concepts and thoughts. Most of his works were initially derided. Eventually, the proofs came, but only when exploratory and creative investigators figured out how they might test his theories.

For me, a person who has a creative thought about life, should just go for it. Warrants or no warrants, most people are going to disagree. So what? Even if no one else wants to listen, I will. Personally, I am rather tired of Plato, Satre, and such. I could use something interesting and new. My own playful pal is Itzhak Bentov. I love writing about him in my blogs.

RIch
 
jgweed
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 07:33 pm
@WithoutReason,
My point is that there are many different ways to express "creative thoughts about life" and one of these is through philosophical discourse.


Philosophical thoughts and theories are "tested" through argumentative discourse by which means the reader is lead through the thinking involved in reaching a conclusion or a perspective about the world that might be different from his own. In this sense of encompasing, philosophy is akin to the truths of great music; the question whether Beethoven or Mozart is "right" does not arise.
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 9 Jun, 2009 08:31 pm
@jgweed,
jgweed;67843 wrote:
My point is that there are many different ways to express "creative thoughts about life" and one of these is through philosophical discourse.


Philosophical thoughts and theories are "tested" through argumentative discourse by which means the reader is lead through the thinking involved in reaching a conclusion or a perspective about the world that might be different from his own. In this sense of encompasing, philosophy is akin to the truths of great music; the question whether Beethoven or Mozart is "right" does not arise.


As far as I can tell, most philosophical thought is philosophers talking right past each other, each insisting that they have the truth. I for one, would welcome fresh ideas. As for proofs, To me it looks like games of words, definitions, and jerry-rigged logic in order to make it seem like it is more worthy than some other idea. There is no logic or proof in Heraclitus or Daoism, yet they are both replete with very rich and useful ideas about Life and Death. I would like more of this time of thinking in my world of philosophy.

Rich
 
Whoever
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 04:45 am
@richrf,
Insofar as it is a logical process philosophising usually proceeds by abduction, by the the elimination of contradictions, a form of proof recommended by Sherlock Holmes. Without contradiction, says the Dalai Lama of analytical philosophy, there is no progress.

If we are prepared to incorporate contradictions in our worldview then this method is useless, and if we are not then we are using logical proofs to form our views. I've never come across a philosopher, or anyone else, who did not in most cases conclude that a contradiction is a proof of falsity. Indeed, it would be impossible to get through the day without believing this. So I can't get my head around the idea that philosophy can abandon the use of proofs.

At any rate, the idea that 'Eastern' philosophers are not interested in proofs is a non-starter. Consider Nagarjuna's proof of the absurdity of positive metaphysical positions, made in support of the Buddha's teachings, or Zeno's reductio arguments against certain of such positions, made in support of Parmenides equivalent doctrine. Without proofs we might as well adopt whichever philosophical position suits our temperament.

The way I see it is this. If the universe is reasonable then the truth is not logically absurd. In this case, a proposition about the universe which is logically absurd is not true. This allows us to construct a proof by abduction of the truth. It seems to me that such proofs must be the core subject matter for any philosophy predicated on a reasonable universe.
 
richrf
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 08:57 am
@Whoever,
Whoever;70048 wrote:
Insofar as it is a logical process philosophising usually proceeds by abduction, by the the elimination of contradictions, a form of proof recommended by Sherlock Holmes. Without contradiction, says the Dalai Lama of analytical philosophy, there is no progress.

If we are prepared to incorporate contradictions in our worldview then this method is useless, and if we are not then we are using logical proofs to form our views. I've never come across a philosopher, or anyone else, who did not in most cases conclude that a contradiction is a proof of falsity. Indeed, it would be impossible to get through the day without believing this. So I can't get my head around the idea that philosophy can abandon the use of proofs.

At any rate, the idea that 'Eastern' philosophers are not interested in proofs is a non-starter. Consider Nagarjuna's proof of the absurdity of positive metaphysical positions, made in support of the Buddha's teachings, or Zeno's reductio arguments against certain of such positions, made in support of Parmenides equivalent doctrine. Without proofs we might as well adopt whichever philosophical position suits our temperament.

The way I see it is this. If the universe is reasonable then the truth is not logically absurd. In this case, a proposition about the universe which is logically absurd is not true. This allows us to construct a proof by abduction of the truth. It seems to me that such proofs must be the core subject matter for any philosophy predicated on a reasonable universe.


Hi,

I like the way you put it. Heraclitus as well as the Eastern Philosophers all felt conflict (Yin Yang) were the impetus for change, i.e contradictions are inherent in the fabric of the universe and of the mind.

However, I have found that proofs are always contradicted in some way. So I am a bit uncomfortable with the notion of proof, since proof implies certainty, which if really True would bring everything to a halt:Smile

Proof: 1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

I guess you can have conflicting proofs, but it sort of dilutes the concept of proof. On the other hand you might really believe that it is a proof (truth), in which case you have to prepare for conflict (I think).

Rich
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Thu 18 Jun, 2009 02:10 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;49002 wrote:
The term "proof" is often used when the conclusion need not be logically necessary. That is a requirement in mathematics and logic, but not in the law, where "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" is the standard, or, "the preponderance of evidence". The first is the standard in criminal cases, and the second in civil cases. The reason for that is clearly that more is at stake in criminal cases than in civil cases. But neither of them requires that the conclusion be logically necessary on the basis of the premises. And, since in science, we have inductive, not deductive proofs, the standard you give would mean that in science there are no proofs at all. So the use of math and logic as the model of proof seems to me not a good one.


In philosophy, are arguments inductive or deductive? Inductive proof(if you can even call it that) is necessarily a far weaker(not logically sound) contingency than deductive proof. Certainly you don't use induction as an overall scheme when deciding if an argument is sound, but rather look at the points, see if you agree with them and see if what is being proposed follows from them logically? Maybe you might use induction to verify one of the points, thats fine, its just subjective. The point is still there that you must test the logical soundness of a conclusion by accepting the arguments or points as axioms(if you agree with them) and deduce whether or not the conclusion follows from them logically.

An example: In a criminal case, when evidence is given, testimonies are given, and arguments from attorneys on both sides are made; you have to deduce whether or not the arguments follow logically from the evidence presented in order to decide if the conclusion presented by either attorney is fallacious or sound. This is strictly deductive.

In medicine, this seems to be the case as well. If symptoms X,Y and Z are present and the patient's history indicates high probability of diseases P, Q and R but only one of them is occurring, then you might conclude that based on the symptoms, the patient has P; as symptom Z is inconsistent with disease Q and symptom X is not caused by disease R, but in fact P is a perfect match. This is strictly deductive, though many of the premises are based on induction(scientific study).
 
Whoever
 
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 03:40 am
@richrf,
richrf;70090 wrote:

I have found that proofs are always contradicted in some way. So I am a bit uncomfortable with the notion of proof, since proof implies certainty, which if really True would bring everything to a halt:Smile

Well, I'd say the whole purpose of proof is to bring everything to a halt. I'm not a fan of the idea that philosophers must go round and round in circles forever. To me a proof that can be contradicted is not proof.

Proof is certainly a tricky business, but I really cannot see how rational thought is possible without it. Without proof there is no systematic thinking.

But I don't think proof implies certainty unless it is strictly formal, e.g. that 2 +2 = 4. Proofs about the world are doubtful unless we know that the universe obeys the rules of the proof, and, as Aristotle notes, we cannot know this from logic, only from empiricism. That is, unless we can prove that the universe is reasonable then logic can prove nothing about it. We can only prove what it would be reasonable to believe about it.
 
Zetetic11235
 
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 10:36 am
@Whoever,
You just have to always reconsider your premises as new information comes into light. If evidence points to one premise one day and you draw a conclusion, and then new evidence reveals itself and the premise must change then so must the conclusion. The important thing is to recognize just how set into stone a premise is: for instance, you might assume your wife is cheating on you because it is consistent with indirect evidence that you have viewed in a certain light. It is easy to see what might go wrong here.

In another case, we see that the number of protons determines the bulk of the properties of an element(and in fact we classify elements based on this number). It would be safe to take this as a definite premise, since contrary evidence showing that the properties of the elements are dependent upon some element or force X that was previously unknown is extremely rare and any contrary claims are currently unfounded.
 
jgweed
 
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 10:52 am
@WithoutReason,
Another way of thinking about the problem is that philosophy uses "logical proof" as means to draw conclusions from certain premises; the difficulties arise in providing warrants or evidence for its premises, and the way these are structured in argumentation.
Much of philosophy, in a way, seems to be a prolonged discussion about what constitutes acceptable warrants for these initial claims and why some arguments (if any) are more compelling than others.
 
richrf
 
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 11:36 am
@jgweed,
jgweed;70360 wrote:
Another way of thinking about the problem is that philosophy uses "logical proof" as means to draw conclusions from certain premises; the difficulties arise in providing warrants or evidence for its premises, and the way these are structured in argumentation.
Much of philosophy, in a way, seems to be a prolonged discussion about what constitutes acceptable warrants for these initial claims and why some arguments (if any) are more compelling than others.


Hi,

Yes, I would agree with this. However, within your description, you posit the warrant that:

Quote:
philosophy uses "logical proof" as means to draw conclusions from certain premises;
http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gif-lhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/obreve.gifshttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-fhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif)n. pl. 1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.
2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.
3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.
4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.
5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.
6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.
7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.
8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

To these, I might add a most original thought that I read recently came across while reading Geldard's Remembering Heraclitus:

"Another theme suggested by the word remembering is its relation to the Greek word for truth, aletheia, one translation for which is "not forgetting,", and another is "to uncover". If truth means not to forget then searching for the truth involves remembering or uncovering what was previously lost. Aletheia was the first word associated with those who practiced philosophy. These were human beings who remembered and spoke of things forgotten. Later, when this term became too imposing for any one persson to assume for the community, these remembers, or truth-tellers, became philia-sophos, lovers of wisdom, a much easier, pleasing sounding activity and an occupation less, likely to end in banishment."

So philosophy may be simply remembering that which we have forgotten. Smile

Rich
 
Whoever
 
Reply Fri 19 Jun, 2009 06:26 pm
@WithoutReason,
Yes, quite a few people reach this conclusion. Perhaps logical analysis allows us to work out that we've forgotten something, and 'knowing thyself' allows us to remember what it was.
 
 

 
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