Feelings are not facts; they are facts to you.
Delusions are not facts; they are facts to you.
Feelings are beliefs; but they are facts to you.

That you feel a defendant is guilty does not mean the defendant is guilty; that you feel there is an 800 pound pink gorilla in the room does not mean there is an 800 pound pink gorilla in the room; that you feel a rainbow is beautiful only means the rainbow is beautiful to you, else it is just a prism.

More, "the comprehension of somebody else's truth" does not matter one iota when that truth is not truth in fact; my comprehension of Dostoevsky's protagonist's truth that "2+2=5" still will not save him if he puts that "truth" to the suggested test. That you "prefer the principles of cybernetics to come to terms with reality" is a misstatement; what you really mean to say is that you "prefer the princples of cybernetics to come to terms with your reality". Big difference.

Have you never heard of a conviction being overturned; of an innocent person being wrongly incarcerated for years or executed based on what a jury felt was true for them?

Feelings are facts, chemical activity, observable and detectable in scientific terms.



But did you ever sit on a jury?

If you are trying to tell us that you or anybody else knows how to reason apart from your feelings then I call you a liar.



If you know in advance what is a fact and what is not, then there is nothing to discuss, never so much of a shortage of fools who think they know it all already.



We tried that before. Proof by induction is invalid, a logical fallacy. If you went to a Court of Law with your protagonist story it would not be admitted as evidence.



Thank you very much, but what I prefer is for me to say, not for you to presume to say for me.

Reality is in effect a system of pattern recognition, so subject to the same principles, whatever the circumstance.

Are you familiar with the principles of cybernetics? An appreciation of the Law of Requisite Variety profoundly changed my approach to everything.



I have never yet heard of a conviction subsequently overturned because the jury had a change of heart. Such an avenue of appeal is not usually provided.

Thank you though for making my point: Truth is a narrative issue; it changes according to the point of view.

Did you ever hear of a scientific conviction overturned because of the same?

Court cases that immediately come to mind were overturned precisely because of that; the so called scientific evidence was eventually thought to be unreliable because of the subjectivity of the "expert".


-- RH.

zzz-zzz-zzz

... as I watch online forums like this, from day to day, I see that their feelings get the better of their logic, more often than not.

--- RH.

You two are having a good debate, ive been spectating and actually you bother have provide a plethora of ideas and infact a reasoned debate(from both sides). You may both disagree with each other, but that is not to say either of you are at all wrong. I suggest though you both remember why you are here and try to respect that deep down your both actually 'walking the same road'.

So by all means i think its worth pursuing this and all your 'arguments', because they have much to contribute on this forum.

I propose that the winner is awarded the prize of a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Who said there was a winner- theres seems to be no right or wrong just a continued exploration of a subject through heated debate.

Moderators tend to have the very last word.

What is the actual job of a moderator anyway, I see it under peoples names and wonder this. But the people who have this title dont seem to be using it for any purpose, they argue and get into unproductive situations as a non moderator-why cant we be moderators also?

To be an effective moderator for a busy forum the first essential is to have an awful lot of time to spare, plus the willingness to commit, long term.

You all have great "aestheet"!

" We are bombarded by huge amounts of information, and its coming into our body and were processing it. Its coming in through our sense organs, and percolating up and up, and at each step were eliminationg information and, finally, what is bubbling up to consciousness is the one that is the most self serving." Candace Pert, phd quote

our visual reality is nothing more than nueral networks that have in our past made connections with images, feelings, everything we see, hear, feel, touch, is all nothing more than a past experience that has now been locked into our so very complicated brain.. It is our brain that gives us our visual reality not our eyes.. We are devine beings , of far greater possibilites, we just simply do not know this.. the biggest ? of all to me is WHY??

Is the body like a car, a machine that has an opperatve function to perform multiple tasks in the phyical space yet it needs a consience to opperate it. Far beyond the 'machine', but still crusial because with out the 'soul' or the 'self within' is totally dead?

I would very much agree, The movie "I, Robot" to me is depicting us I, as the robot when we are unable to truly make our own decisions on how we would like to spend our time in the human experience. We throuh society no longer are able to do the dreaming so da speak. Everything we see has already been drawn out for us. Heres a quote from a professer that i would very much like to meet. He states that "You really have to recognize that even the material world around us, the chairs, the tables, the rooms, the carpet, all of these are nothing but possible movements of consciousness." Amit Goswami, Ph. D. We must begin to look at things from a quantom perspective, a perspective that everything around us down to the smallest atom, plays a role in how everything is visually percieved as reality.(EVERYTHING.) I believe that the soul within us is never totally dead, We with mind can accomplish things unexplained with comparison to our brains.. Another movie to think about in a more outrageous perspective would be , "the island" think of the many topics or messages it plays on. I am just starting to look into these topics with my new perspective. That it is I, Self, Godself, the god within us all that creates our own individual consciousness. With this in mind and a good heart, or good intentions EVERYTHING , spirit worlds, shamanism, universe , everything explained and unexplained in the quantum world can work together to again create a new reality, ONe of peace , unity, and unindividualism..... Together we can create a new world visual reality. But first the power of belief in self must be established to ever begin the journey to World Unity. We all are interconnected through universe, spirit, everything ha.. We just have to start believing it in order for our brain,, to once again be able to follow mind...........

I think you have sumed up the purpose of most religions, namely christianity (in its truest form), though I wouldnt say turn to christianity to fullfil it- just take what we need and move on. The soul is quite possibly eternal though 'how' is the question? As for quantom machanics, did you know that if you even tried to measure it at that level it alters its 'qualities' so these have no actual eternal quality. weird.

energy cannot be created nor destroyed
if everything has energy equivalence then its all apart of 1 homogenous infinite energy mix
u cant measure the whole thing because infinity cannot be mathmatically or logically calculated. (infinity + 1 = infinity)
this is why you cannot prove god exists or prove that you exist and shouldnt look towards pragmaticism for the whole truth because im sure you agree you exist but just cannot prove it
the absolute all inclusive whole expresses itself both infinitely and finitely
feelings are facts
we can see chemical reactions occuring in the body when certain feelings are being expierenced
but look at the otherside of that statement
whos to say what i feel is the same as what you feel? or see or touch or taste or percieve?
maybe my rainbow looks completely different from yours
the qualitys of mass are interpreted differently in each individuals brain even though we are percieving the same mass its qualitys are interpreted uniquely in each of us but fortunately that gives realitys the ability to be united through things like communication
even though we are describing something we both obviously percieve, its actualy something quite different after we interpret it, but these differences are scaled accross each individual persons reality and thus uniting our realitys is possable
the reason the absolute has split its self up finitely is so it can realize it exists, so it expresses itself in every way possable
and it does this by appearing finite and split into a predetermined array known as time
there are lots of illusions in life.. for instance the stars you see in the sky are millions of light years away and their actual existance is questionable yet we still see them.. well the absolute has split itself up in an infinite number of concious beings in order to discover itself ..
to look at life from an infinite perspective is the "enlightend" state everyone referes to.. is absolute awareness.. but its a hard practice to practice every day of our lives- to treat someone else as if they are god usually they will treat you the same way
if everything exists both partical wise and energy wise then finite seporation appears partically but the infinite structure of existance is in the form of energy, which appears as an infinite homogenous whole and cannot be calculated because it is not seporated
what is truth?
if we all percieve the whole thing differently, then obviously my truth is a little different than yours, its all about what you decide to believe intuitively, even if a=b and b=c then does that really mean c=a? its up to you to decide with the evidence u belive in which is determined by your intuition and that in turn is not a logical decision

To the extent that one has access to/sees the beauty 'within' ('self'), is the extent that one sees his reflection as beauty 'without'.

"We do not see things as 'they' are, but as 'we' are!"

Are you aware that everyone sees a different rainbow, scientifically?
As the rainbow is the base of a 'cone' and you are (at) the apex, the 'actual' rainbow that you see is unique. Even someone standing nose to nose with you will see a 'different' rainbow due to his being a 'different' apex of a 'different' cone.

It is 'we' who are the 'pot-of-gold' at the 'end' (apex) of the rainbow!