If you think you're free, there's no escape possible.* ~Ram Dass

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Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 02:53 pm
If you think you're free, there's no escape possible.* ~Ram Dass

Freedom means there is the possiblity to escape. But you cannot escape freedom, so freedom isnt free. Aka:There is no freedom.
 
mister kitten
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 03:16 pm
@no1author,
Being free from freedom is equal to being enslaved. I would like to think there is freedom.

There are many different types of freedoms though, which one are you talking about?
 
no1author
 
Reply Tue 2 Mar, 2010 03:50 pm
@no1author,
Freedom of will, without this freedom there is no freedom.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 01:36 am
@no1author,
no1author;134789 wrote:
Freedom means there is the possiblity to escape. But you cannot escape freedom, so freedom isnt free. Aka:There is no freedom.

no1author;134842 wrote:
Freedom of will, without this freedom there is no freedom.
So, your argument goes something like this:
1) there is freedom of will
2) but freedom means there is a possibility to escape, and we can not escape freedom of will
3) therefore, there is no freedom.
Okay, but there is still freedom of will, all that you've shown there not to be is freedom from freedom of will. And if there were freedom from freedom of will, then there also wouldn't be freedom. So, your argument establishes a trivial truth, freedom is freedom from some thing, thus there is no absolute or ultimate freedom. So what?
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 04:42 am
@no1author,
Ram Dass used to be Richard Alpert, associate of Timothy Leary, at Harvard University. They both took up 'research into hallucinogens' in the 1960's and caused a huge scandal and near-revolution for advocating and taking LSD, after which they were both sacked from Harvard and went on various adventures.

Alpert became Ram Dass when he went to India in search of enlightenment. He met his Guru, Neem Karoli Baba, and wrote a very famous spiritual book, called Be Here Now, which was hugely popular in the 1970's. Ram Dass has gone on to become a very influential and popular spiritual teacher.

I only say this because it gives some background to why he would say something like he said. I think without understanding something about his spiritual background it might not make a lot of sense. So it is a spiritual teaching, what he saying. It also might mean (but there is no reason to think this on the basis of what is presented) that there might be a REAL freedom, compared to which the freedom of thinking I AM FREE is, in fact, bondage. That is how I would read it. So as ughaibu observes, this statement in itself, doesn't really say anything about freedom, or anything about anything, really. It is taken completely out of any kind of context. By itself it is about as meaningful as me writing 'Look! Over there!'

So why did I comment? I like Ram Dass and his teaching is worth hearing.
 
manored
 
Reply Wed 3 Mar, 2010 06:35 am
@no1author,
Freedom is overrated. Then you can do anything you want, there is no reason to do anything =)
 
pshingle
 
Reply Sat 13 Mar, 2010 08:58 pm
@manored,
manored;135317 wrote:
Freedom is overrated. Then you can do anything you want, there is no reason to do anything =)


Freedom may be overrated when you have been "free" for your entire life. I am certain that there are some citizens of Tibet that would argue your quote! :Glasses:
 
manored
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 11:47 am
@pshingle,
pshingle;139437 wrote:
Freedom may be overrated when you have been "free" for your entire life. I am certain that there are some citizens of Tibet that would argue your quote! :Glasses:
Or, considering they dont have freedom, they may be happy to hear it =)
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 12:02 pm
@no1author,
no1author;134789 wrote:
If you think you're free, there's no escape possible.* ~Ram Dass

Freedom means there is the possiblity to escape. But you cannot escape freedom, so freedom isnt free. Aka:There is no freedom.
Freedom means you already escaped.

You can't "escape" unless you're imprisoned. So bondage means there is the possibility of escape.

There's plenty of freedom. The trick is to find out where it actually comes from. I have no doubt that Tibet contains numerous folks who know the answer.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 05:27 pm
@no1author,
What is meant by 'freedom' is at issue here. On one hand, freedom is a political and economic issue - and indeed political and economic freedoms are very important, and the fact that the Tibetans are deprived of political freedom is an ongoing tragedy.

But Ram Dass, being a spiritual teacher, is talking of freedom on another level - freedom from anxiety, craving, and delusion - inner freedom, or spiritual freedom. That kind of freedom is not well understood in the modern world. So when he says 'if you think you're free', I think what he is saying that, as long as you are pleasing yourself, pursuing your own ends, then you won't be free in the spiritual sense.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 06:01 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;139731 wrote:
What is meant by 'freedom' is at issue here. On one hand, freedom is a political and economic issue - and indeed political and economic freedoms are very important, and the fact that the Tibetans are deprived of political freedom is an ongoing tragedy.

But Ram Dass, being a spiritual teacher, is talking of freedom on another level - freedom from anxiety, craving, and delusion - inner freedom, or spiritual freedom. That kind of freedom is not well understood in the modern world. So when he says 'if you think you're free', I think what he is saying that, as long as you are pleasing yourself, pursuing your own ends, then you won't be free in the spiritual sense.
I'm sure you know more about it. I've only heard the name.
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 06:02 pm
@no1author,
Ram Dass was a counter-culture hero in the 60's and 70's. He had a stroke which completely stopped his ability to speak in the 90's, but he is still teaching. His website is at Ram Dass - the official interactive Satsang site for author (Be Here Now) and spiritual teacher Ram Dass
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 07:36 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;139749 wrote:
Ram Dass was a counter-culture hero in the 60's and 70's. He had a stroke which completely stopped his ability to speak in the 90's, but he is still teaching. His website is at Ram Dass - the official interactive Satsang site for author (Be Here Now) and spiritual teacher Ram Dass
I knew he was some kind of New Age Guru.

But. I can't speak to what he meant, but it's still seems true to me: spiritual freedom doesn't mean self denial.

But there's always the possibility of seeing past the duality. Part of you is eternally free. Part of you is eternally bound. The two parts need each other, each for the sake of its own existence. They get along just fine! Smile
 
Mefistofeles
 
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 11:55 am
@no1author,
I think that we should think of freedom differently in every aspect. You may be free politically and financially or not be free, as in those, there are different factors which you may influence. But in a mental sense, you shall never be free, as people are destined to seek their entire life for the spiritual freedom.

(It's my first post, don't slaughter me Smile)
 
manored
 
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 01:44 pm
@Mefistofeles,
Mefistofeles;144665 wrote:
I think that we should think of freedom differently in every aspect. You may be free politically and financially or not be free, as in those, there are different factors which you may influence. But in a mental sense, you shall never be free, as people are destined to seek their entire life for the spiritual freedom.

(It's my first post, don't slaughter me Smile)


/me slaughters you

=)

I dont agree with that last comment, I think we are all free in our minds, though its true that there are some thoughs that "repel" us and have to be "unlocked" before we can reach then.
 
Mefistofeles
 
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 01:52 pm
@manored,
manored;144763 wrote:
/me slaughters you

=)

I dont agree with that last comment, I think we are all free in our minds, though its true that there are some thoughs that "repel" us and have to be "unlocked" before we can reach then.


What you say is true, if we think it from the perspective that one can think whatever he wants, as there are no mind reading devices available. But if those would be for use, then the idea of freedom would disappear completely. So, rather than writing against my opinions, I'll agree with what you said that one is always free in his mind.

(Yeah, I'm still searching in my mind)
 
jeeprs
 
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2010 05:11 pm
@Mefistofeles,
Mefistofeles;144665 wrote:
I think that we should think of freedom differently in every aspect. You may be free politically and financially or not be free, as in those, there are different factors which you may influence. But in a mental sense, you shall never be free, as people are destined to seek their entire life for the spiritual freedom.

(It's my first post, don't slaughter me Smile)


Certainly political and economic freedom, which are very important in their own right, are different to what we might call 'inner freedom'.

Inner freedom I would regard as freedom from anxiety, compulsion, addiction, fearfulness, or other conflicting emotions. If we are free from those kinds of things, then we have a fair degree of inner freedom.
 
Wisdom Seeker
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 10:04 am
@no1author,
no1author;134789 wrote:
If you think you're free, there's no escape possible.* ~Ram Dass

Freedom means there is the possiblity to escape. But you cannot escape freedom, so freedom isnt free. Aka:There is no freedom.


escapes: one who seeks freedom from its opposite
if you try to escape freedom then you will go to its opposite
just like: to escape cold: warm, to escape hatred: love or vice-versa


their is only two rooms, one is freedom,one is non-freedom
if you escape freedom then you will go to to non-freedom
if you escape non-freedom then you will go to freedom

what makes you not free: the non-free
what makes you free : the free
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 11:45 am
@Wisdom Seeker,
Wisdom Seeker;152305 wrote:

their is only two rooms, one is freedom,one is non-freedom
if you escape freedom then you will go to to non-freedom
if you escape non-freedom then you will go to freedom


were you not caused to escape in both situations by its opposite ?
If so, how were you free if you were caused in the first place ?
 
Wisdom Seeker
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 01:08 pm
@no1author,
want to escape both freedom and non-freedom then go to the room where both don't exist. but for us that could be impossible, we can only go for both rooms,

just like from where we standing, we can only choose place A or place B to stand other than that non, if we choose non, then where do we stand?

we have only two rooms available to live in, other than that non,
if choose non then how do we live if we have non to live in
 
 

 
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