Religion is Wrong?

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socrato
 
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 10:29 pm
I do not understand why everybody believes religion is wrong. Can somebody plz explain it to me simply why religion is so very wrong in their mind.

Being a christian I have done good. The past is in the past, who cares! :surrender:
 
Ennui phil
 
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 11:07 pm
@socrato,
Religion brings merits and demerits,undoubtedly the animosity of rebuttal still exist in negotiating religions.In recent news,the malay for God is allah but people perceive it is wrong,and indeed,this induces animosity,which I am not so sure of.

Blasphemy is the next problem.
 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 11:47 pm
@Ennui phil,
How can religion at large be wrong? Beats me. How can religion be wrong? Easily. Look up the Borgia Popes, they are a classic example of religious corruption.
 
Deftil
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 12:27 am
@socrato,
Socrato,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png/800px-Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png

As far as I know, at least 85% of the people in the world associate themselves with some religion. Everyone doesn't believe it is wrong, although I suspect the percentage might not be as high amongst those of us who post on online philosophy forums.

I don't think it's absolutely awful and should be outlawed, but IMO it requires too much faith, and when people start accepting things almost entirely on faith they shut their rational minds off. This leads to irrational behavior that makes the world a difficult and unfair place to live for those who have different beliefs.

I'm glad you've done good as a Christian, but if you weren't a Christian would you not have done good? Perhpas you would have still done good, but not as much of it?

I try to respect people's beliefs, and some of the people I most love are Christians. Nonetheless, the religious type of faith comes only by way of a certain amount of sacrifice to rational thought, and therefore has the potential (as I think has been borne out by history) to be dangerous.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 06:10 am
@socrato,
socrato wrote:
I do not understand why everybody believes religion is wrong. Can somebody plz explain it to me simply why religion is so very wrong in their mind.


Your question is a simple one; unfortunately, the answer isn't so simple.

First, one has to accept that religions are vastly different. No matter how "right or wrong" one thinks any single religion to be, they'd have to be evaluated differently against a particular notion of "right". So, that tosses out the generalized question en toto. In other words: Any ideal of right or wrong you choose could never apply to all - any standard would exonerate some and condemn others. I've come to the conclusion that it's simply far-too generalizing to condemn religion as a whole; this is a recent place I've arrived at (due, in part, by the awesome people here who've expressed their views openly).

I'm an atheist because I don't have any basis for believing in any kind of god. But I've gotta tell ya: Religion (and theism in general) has become such a soup of iffyness that the term itself is virtually useless these days. A lot of the ideas of god, visble all over this forum, can blow any stereotyped concept of god right out of the water. But, if I take your question rightly, you're wondering why some people think some religions are "wrong". To my mind, that depends on what they believe, what they practice and what standard of "right" we apply. I'd be happy to go down this road if this is what you and others want - but it's a long road indeed; down the rabbit hole we go.

Sure, there could be something out there akin to what some folks call a god; all things are possible. But it's also possible that tomorrow, instead of the sun rising over the horizon, there will come a giant Jiffy-Pop Popcorn pan shining in all its glory. I don't believe in this either; why? Because I have no reason to.

I think you'll find - if you haven't already - that atheists in general aren't so much of the stereotypical "damn you for your beliefs!"-set. We simply don't believe, that's all, I begrudge no one for holding a personal set of hopes and faiths.

Thanks, good question
 
jgweed
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 07:13 am
@socrato,
To ask whether religion, or any particular religious sect, is right or wrong (normative values) is to judge it from outside of its own domain by using different standards.
This is to say that there are (at the least) two prior steps (or questions) that must be determined before asking the question. First, one must establish the criteria to be used (what is right or wrong), and then second, one must establish that these criteria are applicable to religion which by implication seems to require a definition of religion. These two steps seem replete with confusion and no decisive determinations possible.
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 10:16 am
@jgweed,
Well here is one that thinks it should be not taught as facts to children by those who maintain their faith ..for that reason alone i despise religion .Brain washing the young mind is tantamount to taking their freedom..It would virtually disappear in a generation if the young could be given the freedom to choose..Yes it is wrong..
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 10:46 am
@xris,
I think the biggest problem with religion is thinking that God has the absolute moral path laid out for you and you must blindly follow that path. A lot of religious people do not evaluate what is right and wrong for themselves, believing that it'll do them good. Any divine being that is the idol of a religion needs to account for the immorality and insanity placed on humanity when morals get objective. An all knowing being would do better to set us on a spiritual path guided by free thought, and subjective morals that do not represent everybody's best choice.

Why should I have to look up to somebody else's view on what I need to do to live a benevolent life. I want to figure it out for myself, what is right and what is wrong. That's what progresses us in society anyways.
 
The light
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 12:48 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Hello socrato,

socrato wrote:
I do not understand why everybody believes religion is wrong. Can somebody plz explain it to me simply why religion is so very wrong in their mind.

Being a christian I have done good. The past is in the past, who cares! :surrender:


The problem comes in three areas:
1. Societie's concepts [ and understanding ] of "Right" and "Wrong".
2. Societie's understanding of the true nature of religion
3.Societie's inabilities to remove themselves from their ego.

1. Societie's concepts [ and understanding ] of "Right" and "Wrong".
- Although these are very subjective, in my humble oppinion these should correlate with logic,morality,ethics,rationality and virtue;aswell as being completely unbiased. Modern societies [ and I mean globally ] tend to think very selfishly, and nly let "right" and "wrong" come into play when they are at a benefit. Surely then, this goes against "Morality","ethics" and "virtue"; and it definetly goes against being unbiased. For "Right" and "Wrong" to be corret, these fundemental concepts must be implemented; and basically they aren't.

2. Societie's understanding of the true nature of religion.
- Two major abstract qualities of religion exist. Either religion is a way to ask for forgiveness and repent for your sins, or religion is a way to reach God, because God [ or any other higher form of deity, I will use God in my post though ] will always love you and always forgive you.
The answer is the second one. God / any higher source of being you believe in is not a source of being that commands to be appeased.If that was the case; you'd be punished, right?

Because God has no means of divine intervention,[ atleast glaringly obvious ones ] people assume that it means God does not require/want to be appeased. They assume God coulden't care less about what actions they commit. Because of this, they start to seperate their concepts of "right" and "wrong" away from morality,virtue,grace,spirituality;the soul. T

Understand that "right" and "wrong" are best understood at the level of the soul, and by seperating yourself from God, you are seperating yourself from the soul.

What you are left with is concepts of "right" and "wrong" that are left to literalism. All concepts of morality,logic,ethic,virtue etc are replaced with seflishness,greed,materialism etc.

If you assume that God is the highest source of being, who you are a part of and who will always love you; you don't fall into this trap. If you don't learn to find the soul however, which millions don't, avoiding this trap is just a delay to suffering.

If you can find the soul [ which we all can, but only a few ever choose to] then "right" and "wrong" become as easy as breathing. You start to see that selfishness and matieralism are illusions, and that real religion is achieved through the means; not through the end product.

3. Societie's inability to seperate it's self from it's ego.
- The ego is another huge problem when it comes to religion. Millions of people worldwide live in a 1 dimensional fallical mindset. A mindset of materialism and literalism. They go about their daily lives in pursuit of wealth,fame,careers,social status and prosperity. None can say that have not lived this way. And yes, to a certain degree, money and a good career are vital to surviving in the 21st century. But you must never take more than you deserve. As Jesus explicitely said "You sow what you reap"; karma comes back to haunt you,regardless if you believe in it.

1 dimensional means that the 1 dimensional object completely blocks anything behind it; and that is what materialism and literalism does. It blocks you from seeing the real you and the real God. The real you exists at a deeper level; the level of the soul. The real God exists as part of your consciousness; as part of your soul, as part of you! As materialism and spirtualism are at different levels of consciousness, and God is not in the former,logically God is accessible through the soul. As the soul is not materialistic, you find that the soul is more concerning with applying morality, love, ethics,virtue,grace,spirituality and seflessness.

In the level of the soul, evil does not exist. All you can see is goodness,love,sharing; all you can see is light in the world. This is the true reality of God and yourself and of religion! ; nothing but light. When you understand this, you understand that religion is right;it's only considered wrong by some because they are stuck in a 1 demenionsal reality.

If you don't remove yourself from your ego, you will be clouded by and stuck in an illusional state of reality ; a materialistical one. It leads to death, might I add. [ If you take that literally, you are indeed still at this level of consciousness.Not to worry, it's within your capabilities the power to change it]

Right I'm waffling now.

- Thanks alot, Take care
James
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 01:36 pm
@The light,
Yes, Socrato, there are 3 types of death. Physical death, spiritual death, and eternal death. Don't worry about eternal death, hell doesn't exist. The physical death is the one you'd be familiar with. And spiritual death is probably what 'the light' was referring to.

I am pretty sure that spiritual death is when you do not accept Jesus Christ as your savior. IMO, life does not require you to accept anyone else's spiritual values such as that. You are spiritually alive whenever you use it in subjectivity and introspect does not become a tool for objective gain.

In life there is no point to go any further than to be benevolent, ther is no extra step IMO that is necessarily doing any good or implying virtue for your spirit, because the transcendent has no potential in life, might be a harsh fact for some.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 04:05 pm
@Holiday20310401,
In thinking about this more, it occurred to me that there's more to be said about religion, even with it's vast array of variations. I'm going to state my view here plainly and openly, without tip-toeing too much. I understand that some may find this offensive, and that's ok. My purpose here is not to "convince"; but rather to "inform" on yet another possibility.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When we allow ourselves to succumb to belief in something for which there is no basis, we remove ourselves from facing the very condition that is a strong, compelling basis for the good things humans can do for each other. Productive aspects such as compassion, love, empathy and respect are all enhanced when one accepts that this is all there really is. Example:[INDENT] You're alone on an island; stranded there with two other people. These others are folks you've never seen before. The mindset that believes they'll never, ever gets rescued takes an interest in the others, helps protect and nurture them because the need the others more. The mindset that believes there'll be a rescue may indeed be kind and positive, but this one lacks the motivated self-interest to really embrace. Why? Because "there's something else in which my hopes rest".
[/INDENT]Accepting what we all collectively know and experience as the way things are helps to focus on the preciousness of the moment - on a higher, more genuine need for the love and company of others. It fosters personal responsibility because what's right and what's wrong is based on human needs, human emotions (and most importantly) humans getting along.

Conversely, accepting the possibility of there being some god - in one form or another - is just fine, dandy and non-destructive. To allow oneself to fall prey to that seductive allure that supernatural possibilities represent, I believe, diminishes the very aspect of our lives that has most-fostered successful human interaction: A deep and abiding need for each other because we accept our reality for what it is (i.e., we don't lie to ourselves).

Let's postulate, let's dream; let's get all teary-eyed at what the cosmos may represent. But please: Let's also keep our feet firmly planted on the ground by accepting the truth of what stares us in the face every day: For what I know now, this is all there is. Who knows what the future may bring (in terms of discoveries), but for now, I think it far better to cling to each other - without deception - than allow our minds to get sucked into a belief system that everything else we know, tells us is not correct.

This is but another person's opinion (erm... mine).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All this being said, I still don't think its "wrong" per say (as I posted here), but I do feel strongly that without it, we'd be more honest and a whole lot better off. No, it's not going anywhere: Religion will probably be with us forever. But for those who've taken the brave step to live this life as it is, without delusion, we can't help but wonder.

Thanks
 
The light
 
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 05:10 pm
@Khethil,
Hey Holiday20310401,

Holiday20310401 wrote:
Yes, Socrato, there are 3 types of death. Physical death, spiritual death, and eternal death. Don't worry about eternal death, hell doesn't exist. The physical death is the one you'd be familiar with. And spiritual death is probably what 'the light' was referring to.

I am pretty sure that spiritual death is when you do not accept Jesus Christ as your savior. IMO, life does not require you to accept anyone else's spiritual values such as that. You are spiritually alive whenever you use it in subjectivity and introspect does not become a tool for objective gain.

Although I personally prefer to replace the word "savior" with "spiritual teacher" , yes you are bang on my friend.

Quote:

In life there is no point to go any further than to be benevolent, ther is no extra step IMO that is necessarily doing any good or implying virtue for your spirit, because the transcendent has no potential in life, might be a harsh fact for some.


Do you genuinely believe that? How about sticking to those principles?

What is more important; being Good and having virtues, or sticking to them?

Of course you are entitled to your oppinion, an oppinion I humbly respect, but I personally choose to go beyond benevolence;beyond good.
Beyond Good, only Good exists;there is no evil. Without evil, there is nothing to counter it; hence the term "beyond good". What you are left with is a state of love and compassion which chooses the virtues of the soul over the virtues of life.

- Thanks,Take care
James
 
Joe
 
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 06:10 pm
@The light,
A question like this, asks simply, How does religion not help us to better ourselves?

It does, like many other things.

To be honest i think that when we focus on why things are wrong we are trying to either seek truth or for the religious aspect love.

I dont think that what is true always represents love. and so its a choice that is battled between two sides of the fence, both making arguments about which side can bring happiness to yourself and others.

Again this is a stand point that cannot be altered because all that people offer is different happiness. At this point in my life I'm trying to put that second and look for something different that humanity has missed since the beginning.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 08:19 pm
@The light,
The light wrote:
Hey Holiday20310401,

Do you genuinely believe that? How about sticking to those principles?


I like to keep an open mind; unlike simply adhering to the principles of a book, which is rather a closed minded view on morals and life and logic, heck even emotion.

The light wrote:
What is more important; being Good and having virtues, or sticking to them?


I'd rather question what will acquire virtue, as the ways of attaining virtue are not constants.:OK:

The light wrote:
Of course you are entitled to your oppinion, an oppinion I humbly respect, but I personally choose to go beyond benevolence;beyond good.
Beyond Good, only Good exists;there is no evil. Without evil, there is nothing to counter it; hence the term "beyond good". What you are left with is a state of love and compassion which chooses the virtues of the soul over the virtues of life.


Dualities tend to have reciprocity in respect to virtue, IMO.:yinyang:
 
The light
 
Reply Tue 11 Nov, 2008 05:00 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Hey Holiday20310401,

Holiday20310401 wrote:
I like to keep an open mind; unlike simply adhering to the principles of a book, which is rather a closed minded view on morals and life and logic, heck even emotion.


I'd rather question what will acquire virtue, as the ways of attaining virtue are not constants.:OK:



Dualities tend to have reciprocity in respect to virtue, IMO.:yinyang:


Brilliant response my friend,truely.

God bless
- Thanks, Take care
James
 
Solipsistic Cat
 
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2008 02:03 am
@The light,
It seems to me religions are looked at with scorn (by adherants of other religions and athiests) because of why some people turn to religion.
When you are born into a life where you cannot rise above a certain station, part of a society that is too big to readily encompass with your mind, you naturally turn inwards to form tighter communities.
Religion allows people the belief that no matter what they do in this life, they are guaranteed paradise, which causes them to act superior to everyone outside thier community.
They cannot entertain thoughts of other religions being valid without sacrificing everything that made them different, so they brand non believers as heretics, evil or just misguided.

As Stephen Roberts said:
Quote:
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours


Having said that, i agree that not all religion is bad, and that indeed most religions seem to be pure as they are preached now (ignoring the commandments about killing the weak and such)
The failing with religions is that they are composed of people, and we are certainly not universally innocent.
 
 

 
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