Revelation

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Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 06:25 am
I am confused!!!

I am a person who makes an effort to love my neighbor as my self and tries to seek god with all my heart. But this morning I have awakened to a supreme discontent. This morning I was promptly reminded of a passage in revelation, no need to specify which, but I am left with anger at the idea that a God who is love intends to watch and wait while this beautiful world and all of its men, women, and children made in Gods image are tortured and killed and damned over a disagreement that "God" had with one of his angels billions of Eons ago.

Now it would be one thing if this was beyond Gods control, be the cause free will or whatever, but how can a good christian honestly say that something is beyond Gods control after all he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. And it is said that he made this world in full knowledge of how it would take its course. And made us knowing everything that we would do. Or so it is according to belief. He created the us knowing whether we would go to hell or heaven and created the devil as well so this was obviously his intent. So, why would God want to watch a beautiful creation in his own image be tortured and sent to hell forever?

Now granted God exists on a higher plane then we do and it is obvious that we can not fully understand him. But none the less is he not perfect, all knowing, all powerful and everywhere. Could such a being not devise a more loving and compassionate plan than the torture and destruction of a world of life. Could not a more virtuous way be walked than eternal damnation. Yes, we do have free will and make our own choices. But is it in the nature of a truly perfect being to leave the fate of an eternity for a lesser being up to a guessing game of religion, with no clues, and Gods own adversary as the guide to the wrong choice.

Again

I am confused!!!
 
Krumple
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 06:48 am
@vajrasattva,
Vajra, can I asked what happened? You sort of imply that something happened that brought on this thought. Care to elaborate a little more, but if you don't want to that's fine.

On a side note, your post reminds me of my admiration for the Bodhisattva by the name of Ksitigarbha. His story is interesting if you don't already know it. But for those who don't care to look it up I'll explain briefly the story as I remember it.

It is said in the Vows of Ksitigarbha Sutra that during a previous life he was a brahmin girl. During that life his mother was very negative towards him practicing Buddhism even to the point of forbidding it. Not only that but she would scold him for even talking about it. Anyways, the mother also had done other negative things which basically caused her to end up in hell after she passed away. Distraught by his mother's death he wondered what the fate of his mother had been so he went to meditate in front of the buddha despite his mother's wishes. During the meditation the Buddha confronted him and brought him to hell. He asked the Buddha what the fate of his mother had been, and the Buddha told him that not only did his mother ascend to heaven that day but every single being that had been in hell also ascended to heaven on that very same day. Shocked he asked the Buddha what was the cause that made all that happen. The Buddha responded that through his vows as a young Bodhisattva it has caused all the beings in hell to accumulate enough merit to release them from the hell realm. He asked the Buddha what the vow was and the Buddha replied that he had vowed to release all beings from hell before he accepts complete enlightenment. The Buddha then told him that in the future he would become a Bodhisattva by the name Ksitigarbha. One of Ksitigarbhas vows is that he refuses complete enlightenment until all beings are released from the three lower realms. I also think this vow includes no beings ever ending up there as well but I can't fully remember all of his vows. But according to the Buddha in this sutra, Ksitigarbha has completed and fulfilled his vows. There is also a mantra that goes along with it.

Om ha ha ha wei sam mo deh so ha. (it might be wrong since I'm writing it purely from memory) The mantra is Ksitigarbha's heart mantra that is suppose to remove all negative karma.

Anyways that's the story in a nutshell even though that sutra is over fifty pages long.
 
prothero
 
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 08:16 am
@vajrasattva,
Revelations is (of course) the vision or hallucinations of a frustrated imprisioned early Christian hoping for retribution and the final triumph of justice in the world.
The mistake would be in thinking that it was anything other than a human product which represented human ideas (what some men say or think about god).
 
vajrasattva
 
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 03:27 pm
@vajrasattva,
Yes I am familiar with the story of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva and I do strive toward his Ideal.

This problem arose as a result of my fathers uniquely christian paranoia about the end of the world.

My family is a bit over christian and seem to be locked in the one way, one faith mentality of the uninformed, unenlightened christian community. My father was on an unprovoked rant about the Antichrist and the apocalypse as a result of my observation of the size and ingenuity of the Chinese nation.

I find it a bit foolish of the average christian, who believes that the way to salvation is through faith, and that faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, to put faith in the idea of an appearance of the incarnation of the summation of all evil. I also find it a bit odd to believe that a god who is love would willingly allow such a thing to occur simply because he gave us free will.

It is a sign of love to let your child have freedom. But to allow him to have freedom to indulge in heroine at the age of 9 is not love it is loves antithesis. But I suppose this is just a restatement of my initial dilemma.

Thank you
Alex
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 06:23 pm
@vajrasattva,
Simple.

Those demagogues you call christian preachers and deacons, will tell you anything to whatever extend. They will make up things that enforces christinaity in all aspects, such as selfregulating features as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent ..simple.
 
vajrasattva
 
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 05:30 pm
@vajrasattva,
Yes, it is true that a large amount of the christian dogma and doctrine has no basis in Judeo-Christian scripture (e.g. the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God). And it is also true that the majority of christian teachers gloss over the aspects of Christs teaching that are inconvenient and/or difficult. This to me is the cause of the Western spiritual crisis that has occurred in recent years. It seems that the average christian American has fallen to the lies of infomercial Christianity. But not all hope is lost because here and there there are those who truly understand what Christianity really is, and i believe (even as a Buddhist) that Christianity is a valid vehicle of faith. So as long as there are those who know, and the faiths of the world are not totally defiled the spiritual goodness will not be lost.
 
mark noble
 
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:36 am
@vajrasattva,
Hi Vajrasattva,

Isaiah 45:7. God made both The good and the evil of this world.
Other NT verses remind us that all acts are by Him, for Him and through Him.
It is God that commits people to the etenal damnation of hell, not a devil.
What purpose would the devil have, if not merely a tool of God's. The devil cannot oppose God - only perform His bidding. There is no point to a "devil" - which IMO is merely the construct of man's imaginings. Ultimately, with no room for manouvreability the devil is no more than God's handyman (angel of destruction). Therefore an aspect of God's nature.
God is, indeed, graceful, merciful and good - but, also desructive, merciless and evil to boot.

If you wish - we can explore this more in depth?

Thank you, and journey well, sir, always.

Mark...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 07:52 am
@vajrasattva,
vajrasattva;169507 wrote:
I am confused!!!




Could such a being not devise a more loving and compassionate plan than the torture and destruction of a world of life. Could not a more virtuous way be walked than eternal damnation.

I am confused!!!


Well, supposing there is such a God as you describe, the best answer I think is that He could indeed create a world with less pain and sorrow in it, but that he could not create a world with less pain and sorrow in it that had as much joy and happiness in it as the world that exists. So that although He could have created a less bad world, that to do so, He could not have created as good a world as the one we now have. Philosophers put this explanation as the view that God created the best of all possible worlds. Not the best of all worlds both possible and impossible, for He could not have created an impossible world; and not a world with less pain and sorrow in it, which God could have done; but the best of all possible worlds which contained the least amount of pain and sorrow compatible with the greatest amount of joy and happiness.

The above is an answer to your problem only insofar as any speculation can be an answer to your problem. Whether it is actually true or not no one (I think) has the least idea. It is merely the best of all possible speculations.
 
prothero
 
Reply Mon 31 May, 2010 11:57 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;171240 wrote:
The above is an answer to your problem only insofar as any speculation can be an answer to your problem. Whether it is actually true or not no one (I think) has the least idea. It is merely the best of all possible speculations.
Well I think a better solution is to modify your conception of god and how god acts in the world.

Only if one assumes god is supernatural and omniscient and omnipotent could the "best of all possible worlds" be considered the "best of all possible specualtions". It is better yet to speculate about those presumed attributes of god and divine action in the world that give rise to "the problem of evil" in the first place. God may be something different entirely than classical orthodox Christian theology asserts.
 
 

 
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