The concept of fear(hell)

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Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 08:14 am
Let's consider this scenario..

I know a statement that is true and only I know that it's true, and supposedly I tell you that statement...

But when I finish telling you this statement, I add a little twist to it... I say if you don't believe me or accept this statement as true, I will punish you at some finite time in the future.

What can you interpert from my statement provided you don't know if it's true or false.
 
Marat phil
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 08:44 am
@ikurwa89,
ikurwa89;148199 wrote:
Let's consider this scenario..

I know a statement that is true and only I know that it's true, and supposedly I tell you that statement...

But when I finish telling you this statement, I add a little twist to it... I say if you don't believe me or accept this statement as true, I will punish you at some finite time in the future.

What can you interpert from my statement provided you don't know if it's true or false.


[SIZE="4"]I don't believe you. Your scenario isn't confirmed by miracles (revivals, healings, prophecy execution). Prove that you possess force!
[/SIZE]
 
ikurwa89
 
Reply Sun 4 Apr, 2010 06:58 pm
@Marat phil,
Marat;148208 wrote:
I don't believe you. Your scenario isn't confirmed by miracles (revivals, healings, prophecy execution). Prove that you possess force!



So your saying my statement is true if and only if it is confirmed by miracles?

But part of my statements might consist of miracles that you speak of, and at the end i will still add that if you don't believe me I will punish you?

So have I not narrowed down your choice to "believe in me" or "believe in me" ?
 
spiltteeth
 
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 12:31 am
@ikurwa89,
Obviously I would say I believed you, but one can't be compelled to actually believe by force, one can only pretend to unless one is cognitively convinced.
 
wayne
 
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 12:44 am
@ikurwa89,
ikurwa89;148199 wrote:
Let's consider this scenario..

I know a statement that is true and only I know that it's true, and supposedly I tell you that statement...

But when I finish telling you this statement, I add a little twist to it... I say if you don't believe me or accept this statement as true, I will punish you at some finite time in the future.

What can you interpert from my statement provided you don't know if it's true or false.


I would interpret that you are insecure in your belief that your statement is true, that you must use fear to coerce me to lend credence to your statement.
 
ikurwa89
 
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 08:52 pm
@wayne,
wayne;148452 wrote:
I would interpret that you are insecure in your belief that your statement is true, that you must use fear to coerce me to lend credence to your statement.


Great, so the Abrahamic God is insecure about his statement...
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 09:03 pm
@ikurwa89,
ikurwa89;148199 wrote:
Let's consider this scenario..

I know a statement that is true and only I know that it's true, and supposedly I tell you that statement...

But when I finish telling you this statement, I add a little twist to it... I say if you don't believe me or accept this statement as true, I will punish you at some finite time in the future.

What can you interpert from my statement provided you don't know if it's true or false.

Fear is an infinite and cannot be conceived...
Hell is an infinite and cannot be conceived...
Hell as in infinite is like guilt as an infinite because we all know what is right, and all know if we have done wrong, and though it may not seem so bad at the time, and the consequences are beyond our sight, for the moral person guilt is a positive impediment to happiness, and to doing further harm... If you can imagine Oedipus at Colonis deliberately accepting death rather than being used for an evil purpose you can see the sunny side of guilt... If one freely accepts punishment for a crime one does out of ignorance, then what will the enlightened person do to avoid crime???We do as we see, and even Ray Charles could see that one... Knolwedge is virtue because in knowing good we avoid the doing of evil... We do not do to say we are real, but realize our potential as human being in refraining from doing that act with an evil consequence... We learn...
 
wayne
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 07:46 am
@ikurwa89,
ikurwa89;148719 wrote:
Great, so the Abrahamic God is insecure about his statement...


Well, theres definitely some insecurity going on there somewhere. I think it's most likely the leaders' insecurity though.
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 02:12 pm
@wayne,
This post has some issues:

You are not a God. If you told me I might not be so convinced about your ability to do anything. Also there are not entire cultures built up around interpretations of your will. Granted this is a thinly veiled thread about the unlikelyhood of there being a God and his/her sense of self importance and projections of injustice, yet that being said one cannot really equate oneself with an omnipotent being mythical or otherwise and exprect there to be a direct comparison, thereby calling that being insecure, because someone called you insecure etc...
 
Decemberist phil
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 07:52 am
@Marat phil,
Marat;148208 wrote:
[SIZE="4"]I don't believe you. Your scenario isn't confirmed by miracles (revivals, healings, prophecy execution). Prove that you possess force!
[/SIZE]

How can you use an unproven theory (existence of miracles...) to prove an unprovable theory (existence of hell)?
 
Wisdom Seeker
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 08:22 am
@wayne,
wayne;148452 wrote:
I would interpret that you are insecure in your belief that your statement is true, that you must use fear to coerce me to lend credence to your statement.


what if it is needed for you to believe in him by force without proving anything to save you...

if you really feel god you will not ask anything but to have faith in him, to accept his love because you feel him.

some kind of force makes you tell god that he is insecure in his belief.

and that force maybe against god.

a force that is against god (devil,evil ghost, etc.)
 
Decemberist phil
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 12:11 pm
@Wisdom Seeker,
Wisdom Seeker;153968 wrote:
what if it is needed for you to believe in him by force without proving anything to save you...

if you really feel god you will not ask anything but to have faith in him, to accept his love because you feel him.

some kind of force makes you tell god that he is insecure in his belief.

and that force maybe against god.

a force that is against god (devil,evil ghost, etc.)

indeed, free enquiry is satanic
 
Wisdom Seeker
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 12:48 pm
@Decemberist phil,
Decemberist;154057 wrote:
indeed, free enquiry is satanic

What i mean is that there is no need for answers to believe God.
if there is answer then fine, if not then have faith.
 
wayne
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 07:03 pm
@Wisdom Seeker,
Wisdom Seeker;153968 wrote:
what if it is needed for you to believe in him by force without proving anything to save you...

if you really feel god you will not ask anything but to have faith in him, to accept his love because you feel him.

some kind of force makes you tell god that he is insecure in his belief.

and that force maybe against god.

a force that is against god (devil,evil ghost, etc.)


If I can concieve of a God that doesn't need to threaten me , how much more so can God concieve, after all I am only a man.

God wants faith from me, not fear. Fear is the tool of men.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 07:11 pm
@wayne,
wayne;154218 wrote:
God wants faith from me, not fear. Fear is the tool of men.


Faith is also a tool and it is used to keep the invented god concept alive. It isn't that god requires faith, it's that people who want to keep their invisible friend from fading into reality, must maintain it.
 
Marat phil
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 07:32 pm
@ikurwa89,
The fear (hell) is underside hopes (paradise).
People aren't afraid to burn in hell. People are afraid of conscience torments. These are different motives. The fear before hell or God didn't do people obedient and mild. People became Christians because were afraid of inquisitors, monarchs and their reprisals. The first Christians - Jews in Rome believed in Love and Goodness.
 
wayne
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 07:44 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;154221 wrote:
Faith is also a tool and it is used to keep the invented god concept alive. It isn't that god requires faith, it's that people who want to keep their invisible friend from fading into reality, must maintain it.


This is true, as with any tool , faith can be misused.
I don't agree that the God concept is invented, religion is not the same thing as God concept.

God concept has been around a long long time, longer than our history of it, who can say, could be part of us, not invented.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 08:06 pm
@wayne,
wayne;154235 wrote:
This is true, as with any tool , faith can be misused.
I don't agree that the God concept is invented, religion is not the same thing as God concept.


Well the reason I call it a concept is because I think it is a side-effect to having cognition. When you have the ability to wonder about your environment the god concept creeps into the thought process.

One of my favorite shows is mythbusters. The premise of the show reveals something about the human condition that I think gets overlooked often. What people generally believe to be true is often not the case in reality. Since this is a common human failing which the show has clearly pointed out, it must call into question that peoples belief in a the god concept is not just something similar to any other myth. The only problem it can't be verified. I say if it can't be verified then it should not hold any weight at all. To invest anything into this belief would be a fault.

God concept has been around a long long time, longer than our history of it, who can say, could be part of us, not invented.[/QUOTE]

The only reason the god concept has persisted for so long is not because it has some validity but instead it has no variable thing to dismiss it. Just like a child who believes a monster is living it their closet, can be verified, investigated and determined. The god concept can't so it persists and people use this persistence as the ONLY evidence for the god concept. I say that is faulty grounds for a basis for belief. Just because a myth is widely believed does not make it a reality.
 
wayne
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 09:26 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;154242 wrote:
Well the reason I call it a concept is because I think it is a side-effect to having cognition. When you have the ability to wonder about your environment the god concept creeps into the thought process.

One of my favorite shows is mythbusters. The premise of the show reveals something about the human condition that I think gets overlooked often. What people generally believe to be true is often not the case in reality. Since this is a common human failing which the show has clearly pointed out, it must call into question that peoples belief in a the god concept is not just something similar to any other myth. The only problem it can't be verified. I say if it can't be verified then it should not hold any weight at all. To invest anything into this belief would be a fault.



We humans do have that inquiring mind, problem is, not everybody uses it. I like mythbusters too, I think they might have to come up with a new rating for something like the god concept. It could be said to be "plausible" or "not plausible" depending on the individual view.



Krumple;154242 wrote:
God concept has been around a long long time, longer than our history of it, who can say, could be part of us, not invented.


Krumple;154242 wrote:
The only reason the god concept has persisted for so long is not because it has some validity but instead it has no variable thing to dismiss it. Just like a child who believes a monster is living it their closet, can be verified, investigated and determined. The god concept can't so it persists and people use this persistence as the ONLY evidence for the god concept. I say that is faulty grounds for a basis for belief. Just because a myth is widely believed does not make it a reality.


I think that "persisted" implies a definite origin, of which we are unable to prove nor disprove. I am thinking that the idea of it being plausible or not plausible to the individual sounds pretty clear and acceptible. I think most of us have conducted our own thought experiments and observations that lead us to the position we take on the plausibility of the god concept.
I would like to know if this idea is inate or not, but there is no way to find out.

I am not in agrrement with religious principles that we should believe something because someone says so, I am all for the inquiring mind.
 
 

 
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