Why do I have to inherit Adam and Eve's sin?

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Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 11:06 pm
@Lithium phil,
I agree with you, Fido. But isn't that quite Nietzschean? To view the birth of morality from what helps the group survive -- to me this is sensible.

I think we can even compare specific morals to genes. Those which help the group survive, survive with the group.. Behavioral memes...
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 11:19 pm
@Lithium phil,
Ethics as morals comes from a primitive stage of society... Such societies were not moral by choice...All the virtues we consider were necessary for the survival of people in close groups surrounded by enemies...People want morality, but they do not want the conditions that made people moral...And I sympathize, and yet we must learn to recreate at least some of the conditions that made morals...Our enemies may not be wolves, or lions, or human like animals; but those who stand alone are god's own victims...They are doomed...No one can fight city hall, or their church, or a corporation...The advantage rests with communities and not with individuals..
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 11 Dec, 2009 11:29 pm
@Lithium phil,
I agree, and this is why Romanticism is generally tragic. Byronic rebels are brought low. But they attract us with their intensity. Perhaps when life becomes comfortable, intensity becomes a luxury. Think of all the action movies. The old war-hunting module needs its itch scratched.

You're quite right about the vulnerability of the individual. But how often is the corporation or the church exactly the group this individual joins. In general man acts much less heroic than the action heroes he admires. It's like looking at tofu while eating bacon. I wonder whether group morals can be a living force in a society so based on individual initiative, property rights, and the worship of money. Rather we tend to see the escapist updates of life-philosophies like stoicism, cynicism, Buddhism, taoism.... We are atomized. Speaking of which: have you read this guy? Here's a link. Best contemporary novelist I can think of.Michel Houellebecq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 12 Dec, 2009 05:55 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;110446 wrote:
I agree, and this is why Romanticism is generally tragic. Byronic rebels are brought low. But they attract us with their intensity. Perhaps when life becomes comfortable, intensity becomes a luxury. Think of all the action movies. The old war-hunting module needs its itch scratched.

You're quite right about the vulnerability of the individual. But how often is the corporation or the church exactly the group this individual joins. In general man acts much less heroic than the action heroes he admires. It's like looking at tofu while eating bacon. I wonder whether group morals can be a living force in a society so based on individual initiative, property rights, and the worship of money. Rather we tend to see the escapist updates of life-philosophies like stoicism, cynicism, Buddhism, taoism.... We are atomized. Speaking of which: have you read this guy? Here's a link. Best contemporary novelist I can think of.Michel Houellebecq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The individual seeks freedom at any price, and the corporation gives him a mortgage on it...You need it by the mile, and they sell it by the inch...

No...I have come to reading only fiction to reading only fiction under the label of non fiction...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 05:01 am
@Fido,
Fido;110492 wrote:
The individual seeks freedom at any price, and the corporation gives him a mortgage on it...You need it by the mile, and they sell it by the inch...

No...I have come to reading only fiction to reading only fiction under the label of non fiction...



I like this. Both parts. And to be on-topic. Let's say that debt is the sin we inherit. And Adam and Eve are the working class.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 01:21 pm
@Lithium phil,
That is too fatalistic for me...The purpose of some myths is to explain what is: why the bear has a short tail, or why people suffer..Philosophers must know better...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 02:29 pm
@Lithium phil,
But it's only fatalistic if the irony is ignored. Tone is a huge part of meaning. This is the advantage of living speech. Connecting dots is a sport of the mind. If I were president, I would play different games. Instead I'm in some corner of the Empire. Yes, I like the sort of myths you mention too.

On topic, though: A person has to inherit Adam and Eve's sin because Adam and Eve are not the two first humans but humanity in general. I believe that the word "Adam" means man and the word "Eve" mother. If I'm wrong, forgive and correct me. But it does seem that a story with Man and Mother for characters was intended from the beginning to be symbolic.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 03:42 pm
@Lithium phil,
It is nonsense to consider pain as resulting from knowledge... The story falls apart...God worried for the lonliness of man, and why if man could not feel pain; and it was for hunger that food was sought, and food was eaten... We were not punished more before than after... It is just a why for a what story...We certainly are at fault for our own pain, but each generation has the power over its own, if they would only take it for good, we could be fine...I do like in the story that the Devil is presented as rational, and immoral... Reason is contrary to morality...Eve acted rationally given her knowledge, as people do, for blindness of consequences does not present a counter argument to our desires....

There is a moral here: Even those whose lives are like Paradice, having every need satisfied, still suffer the misery of their desires...For those who cannot govern their passions, no law of God or man will stop their investment in misery...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 03:53 pm
@Fido,
Fido;111007 wrote:
It is nonsense to consider pain as resulting from knowledge... The story falls apart...God worried for the lonliness of man, and why if man could not feel pain; and it was for hunger that food was sought, and food was eaten... We were not punished more before than after... It is just a why for a what story...We certainly are at fault for our own pain, but each generation has the power over its own, if they would only take it for good, we could be fine...I do like in the story that the Devil is presented as rational, and immoral... Reason is contrary to morality...Eve acted rationally given her knowledge, as people do, for blindness of consequences does not present a counter argument to our desires....


Nietzsche attacks Socrates as a sort of counter-traditional rationalists. He thought the Greeks lost touch with their tradition, needed a radical cure. So Socrates comes in with his head-religion, to replace the broken heart- religion. Socrates didn't care for music until the end. He chattered and chattered, putting tradition into question. In the name of what? Reason. But reason that is contrary to life is not so reasonable. This is from the beginning of Twilight of the Idols. He also goes in the Eden myth, later in the book. You may know all this but it comes to mind.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sun 13 Dec, 2009 08:41 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;111013 wrote:
Nietzsche attacks Socrates as a sort of counter-traditional rationalists. He thought the Greeks lost touch with their tradition, needed a radical cure. So Socrates comes in with his head-religion, to replace the broken heart- religion. Socrates didn't care for music until the end. He chattered and chattered, putting tradition into question. In the name of what? Reason. But reason that is contrary to life is not so reasonable. This is from the beginning of Twilight of the Idols. He also goes in the Eden myth, later in the book. You may know all this but it comes to mind.

I have not got much regard for Nietzche or Socrates...Knowledge is not Virtue as Socrates said... So in this respect, Nietzsche was correct... Athens was dying because its morals were dying, and its morals were dying because of its success as a money economy, which as in our own days divided society between rich and poor, and no unity equals no morality...To live in the larger society we need knowledge and reason, and it is inevitable that nation states will throw together diverse peoples who do not share the same morality as the Athenians once did...But that time was passed... The Greeks were a wide spread people crumbling with their morals...And morals are life... A people's natural morals flow out of their natural relationships...A money economy disrupts all that, and Socrates in searching for a morality supported by reason was planting a cross on the grave of natural morals...He did not kill it; but said it was dead, and the end had begun for Greece...Their natural morals set them against each other, and universal morals had not taken over, as if they ever do, to unite the Ionians and Dorians into a single people...

A single morality based upon reason as law should be might save this nation...The power of law is bent to the service of the powerful, and law attacks natural morality, so we are left with essentially the same state as Socrates faced...We are deeply divided, and like Athens, mostly empoverished, and are only waiting for a more organized and united society to crack us like a nut...
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Mon 14 Dec, 2009 12:53 am
@Fido,
Fido;111068 wrote:
I have not got much regard for Nietzche or Socrates...Knowledge is not Virtue as Socrates said... So in this respect, Nietzsche was correct... Athens was dying because its morals were dying, and its morals were dying because of its success as a money economy, which as in our own days divided society between rich and poor, and no unity equals no morality...To live in the larger society we need knowledge and reason, and it is inevitable that nation states will throw together diverse peoples who do not share the same morality as the Athenians once did...But that time was passed... The Greeks were a wide spread people crumbling with their morals...And morals are life... A people's natural morals flow out of their natural relationships...A money economy disrupts all that, and Socrates in searching for a morality supported by reason was planting a cross on the grave of natural morals...He did not kill it; but said it was dead, and the end had begun for Greece...Their natural morals set them against each other, and universal morals had not taken over, as if they ever do, to unite the Ionians and Dorians into a single people...

A single morality based upon reason as law should be might save this nation...The power of law is bent to the service of the powerful, and law attacks natural morality, so we are left with essentially the same state as Socrates faced...We are deeply divided, and like Athens, mostly empoverished, and are only waiting for a more organized and united society to crack us like a nut...


Basically I agree with the diagnosis. Technology is a big factor. Big capital behind big bombers. It's the new element in world history that makes things less predictable.
 
HexHammer
 
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2010 03:09 am
@Lithium phil,
Lithium;84423 wrote:
Why did I have to inherit Adam and Eve's punishment of eating from the tree, when no decision (excluding the "earthly Jesus") from any other person in my life can make an impact on whether I will able to go to heaven? After all, we should all have free will... right? Ponders: Shouldn't I have had the choice of whether I wanted to live this kind of life? Why is Adam and Eve's decision placed on a higher level of importance? Did God deceive man? Meaning, if he knows every decision one will make, then why did he plant the tree in the first place. Isn't this just as bad as Satan tempting man?
?
Uhmm, as far as I can tell, I don't think being wise, intelligent nor knowledgeable is a punishment.

It's all in your mind.
 
 

 
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