Christian evil

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Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 12:28 pm
To be a Christian must one then have to believe in evil?

Is evil necessary to believe in if you believe in Christ?

Is Christianity trying to proove good or evil?

(To believe you are evil or capable mean you are a Christian?)

(Is Christian evil different from other evils or other religions evils?)
 
melonkali
 
Reply Mon 15 Feb, 2010 08:55 pm
@sometime sun,
Good question. I'm a Christian with a dualist bent, but I have no good answer for you at this time -- I've begun studying the definition of evil as the concept might have been understood in the ancient world. If I ever make sense of the quagmire I've landed in, I'll post. If anyone in the forum has studied this subject, I'd love to know what you've found, what your opinion is.

rebecca
 
Pyrrho
 
Reply Sun 21 Feb, 2010 05:33 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;128563 wrote:
To be a Christian must one then have to believe in evil?

Is evil necessary to believe in if you believe in Christ?

Is Christianity trying to proove good or evil?

(To believe you are evil or capable mean you are a Christian?)

(Is Christian evil different from other evils or other religions evils?)



If there is no evil, then it would be difficult to understand the concept of a "savior". From what would a savior be saving one if there were no evil?
 
Raine
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 01:24 pm
@sometime sun,
I'm an atheist but I suppose that the theist could defend the concept that there is no evil, merely a lack of good?
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Tue 23 Feb, 2010 03:04 pm
@Pyrrho,
Pyrrho;130844 wrote:
If there is no evil, then it would be difficult to understand the concept of a "savior". From what would a savior be saving one if there were no evil?

Difficult but not impossible. There is still something better to be doe snot always mean that the ultimate worst exists.
Can one believe in hell and not in evil?
 
Raine
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 08:43 am
@sometime sun,
Do modern christians believe in an actual hell or is a just a metaphorical concept to explain absolute Godlessness?
 
Pepijn Sweep
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 10:09 am
@Raine,
Does it mean to be an a-theist to be not believing in God; does this mean they do believe in Evil? I allways wondered how you can discard one, without the other...

I am grown a Kristen (local speak) and still believe in the qualities of the New Testament. I educated myself with socalled sciencias, religeous writings and a lot of day to day to day observations.

My view is that evil is in every-one of us. Christian, Boeddhist, pagans and Muslims. We don't understand God/evil but we can try to see things from an humanistic point of view, mixed with some empathy.

In hermetic writings a person is seen as a container for a soul which needs to learn about live on earth; :devilish:
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 10:30 am
@Raine,
Raine;131490 wrote:
I'm an atheist but I suppose that the theist could defend the concept that there is no evil, merely a lack of good?


I have seen this argument used before, and my response is that a lack of something is neutral, not opposed. So for a god to punish for a neutral act would seem rather silly to me. Although for a god to punish anything he created would also seem rather silly, I see no "fatherly tough love" in one time 75 year shots at heaven or hell.

The problem of evil has been around for ages because it is a genuine problem. There is no correct answer that does not diminish the idea of god in some manner. You either make god less than omnipotent, less than omnipresent, less than omnibenevolent, etc... or you try to conclude that evil was necessary, and the answer to this for me is, "why create us at all then?".

I believe we are at a turning point where the vast amounts of information a person can access will force new twists on these age old problems, such as the "lack of good" argument.
 
Raine
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 10:49 am
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;131837 wrote:
I have seen this argument used before, and my response is that a lack of something is neutral, not opposed. So for a god to punish for a neutral act would seem rather silly to me. Although for a god to punish anything he created would also seem rather silly, I see no "fatherly tough love" in one time 75 year shots at heaven or hell.

The problem of evil has been around for ages because it is a genuine problem. There is no correct answer that does not diminish the idea of god in some manner. You either make god less than omnipotent, less than omnipresent, less than omnibenevolent, etc... or you try to conclude that evil was necessary, and the answer to this for me is, "why create us at all then?".



I agree. I think the problem ( not just of evil ), is that the attributes that theists give to the Christian God are fundamentally opposed.
An omnibenevolent God wouldn't punish, nor create a world where evil could happen.
And if the view that we have a "destiny" is true, and that "God works in mysterious ways" is also true, it would seem that the Christian God isn't all-loving if he punishes his creation for something they cannot control?
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 11:18 am
@Raine,
Raine;131842 wrote:
I agree. I think the problem ( not just of evil ), is that the attributes that theists give to the Christian God are fundamentally opposed.
An omnibenevolent God wouldn't punish, nor create a world where evil could happen.
And if the view that we have a "destiny" is true, and that "God works in mysterious ways" is also true, it would seem that the Christian God isn't all-loving if he punishes his creation for something they cannot control?


Exactly, the idea of free will breaks down in a theist's argument when you ask them "who decided to create us to endure this gauntlet?". If god is all-knowing (or even if he just had common sense), he would know that he was sending the majority of the planet to hell by creating us, so the responsibility falls back on god. Even if hell was just separation from god, it is still a matter of where free will breaks down, obviously if there is a god almost everyone would want to know!
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 05:55 pm
@Raine,
Raine;131820 wrote:
Do modern christians believe in an actual hell or is a just a metaphorical concept to explain absolute Godlessness?

I am not a classical Christian (whatecver that means) and i believe in hell, not sure hell is created for or by Christians though.
Hell meets the needs of those who go there.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 06:06 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;132033 wrote:
I am not a classical Christian (whatecver that means) and i believe in hell, not sure hell is created for or by Christians though.
Hell meets the needs of those who go there.


I'm on my way there, ill send you a post card.

---------- Post added 02-24-2010 at 04:16 PM ----------

Scottydamion;131854 wrote:
Exactly, the idea of free will breaks down in a theist's argument when you ask them "who decided to create us to endure this gauntlet?". If god is all-knowing (or even if he just had common sense), he would know that he was sending the majority of the planet to hell by creating us, so the responsibility falls back on god. Even if hell was just separation from god, it is still a matter of where free will breaks down, obviously if there is a god almost everyone would want to know!


I have tried to point this out before, with pretty much to no avail. They look at it and shrug, like I was talking about some science fiction story.

If god exists, god knows I was made for going directly to hell. I picture myself coming off the assembling line and falling directly into the hell pit. Like no packaging, no shipping, no instructions, just a straight shot off the conveyor belt and into the oven. He knew even before the last bolt was put into place that I was destined for the recycling bin. I mean, what's the point then putting in the last bolt if it's just going into the heap anyways?
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 06:26 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;132042 wrote:
I'm on my way there, ill send you a post card.

---------- Post added 02-24-2010 at 04:16 PM ----------



I have tried to point this out before, with pretty much to no avail. They look at it and shrug, like I was talking about some science fiction story.

If god exists, god knows I was made for going directly to hell. I picture myself coming off the assembling line and falling directly into the hell pit. Like no packaging, no shipping, no instructions, just a straight shot off the conveyor belt and into the oven. He knew even before the last bolt was put into place that I was destined for the recycling bin. I mean, what's the point then putting in the last bolt if it's just going into the heap anyways?

At least you dont believe we are all already there.

We are built to go up, you may not have a choice in that either, just as you have no choice to be good person even though you may have bad habits makes you no less a good person.
The very act of love is God proven.
God sees you Krumple, God is looking right at you even if you cant see yourself.
God is pleased:)
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 06:44 pm
@sometime sun,
sometime sun;132058 wrote:
At least you dont believe we are all already there.

We are built to go up, you may not have a choice in that either, just as you have no choice to be good person even though you may have bad habits makes you no less a good person.
The very act of love is God proven.
God sees you Krumple, God is looking right at you even if you cant see yourself.
God is pleased:)


I just don't care what god thinks. My bad habits are only bad because I can't seem to find a better way to get the contentment that I seek. Try to convince me that I don't seek contentment or don't need it won't help me solve this problem. Not unless you have something to replace it with. I don't think you can replace it, because there is nothing to replace it with. I don't have a choice, as I have said in the past, I am only doing what I am most inclined to do. Sometimes influenced by chemical reactions, sometimes influenced by feelings or impressions, but they all lead to a quick fix before the next request is made. You can't replace this with some illusory divinity and solve the problem, if you could everyone would do it. I can verify that it doesn't work. Like trying to think of food to solve your hunger problem.
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 08:09 pm
@Krumple,
sometime sun;132058 wrote:
At least you dont believe we are all already there.

We are built to go up, you may not have a choice in that either, just as you have no choice to be good person even though you may have bad habits makes you no less a good person.
The very act of love is God proven.
God sees you Krumple, God is looking right at you even if you cant see yourself.
God is pleased:)


I think you are pleased to say such blissful things, and it pleases you to encourage others... replace "god is pleased" with "I am pleased" and I see no difference in your reactions.

Krumple;132069 wrote:
I just don't care what god thinks. My bad habits are only bad because I can't seem to find a better way to get the contentment that I seek. Try to convince me that I don't seek contentment or don't need it won't help me solve this problem. Not unless you have something to replace it with. I don't think you can replace it, because there is nothing to replace it with. I don't have a choice, as I have said in the past, I am only doing what I am most inclined to do. Sometimes influenced by chemical reactions, sometimes influenced by feelings or impressions, but they all lead to a quick fix before the next request is made. You can't replace this with some illusory divinity and solve the problem, if you could everyone would do it. I can verify that it doesn't work. Like trying to think of food to solve your hunger problem.


The sad thing is that religion does work for some. It defines the important issues as ones that are concerned with things that happen after you die, and then focuses your attention on the after-death. It replaces a quick fix with a lifelong quick fix, it is the ultimate placebo effect, sell your soul for happiness.
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 08:15 pm
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;132128 wrote:
The sad thing is that religion does work for some. It defines the important issues as ones that are concerned with things that happen after you die, and then focuses your attention on the after-death. It replaces a quick fix with a lifelong quick fix, it is the ultimate placebo effect, sell your soul for happiness.


I agree it does work, but it also in my opinion creates other problems. It might solve some, but for as many as it solves, it tends to create others. All you really end up doing was shift the problems around, so you really are not better off, you just have different problems than someone who doesn't religion. (Yep I am aware I just used the word religion as a verb.)

So if that is the case, then it seems to me why do all of that if you are just going to shift things around a bit?
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 08:52 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple;132131 wrote:
I agree it does work, but it also in my opinion creates other problems. It might solve some, but for as many as it solves, it tends to create others. All you really end up doing was shift the problems around, so you really are not better off, you just have different problems than someone who doesn't religion. (Yep I am aware I just used the word religion as a verb.)

So if that is the case, then it seems to me why do all of that if you are just going to shift things around a bit?


Lol, I suppose that may be the question of our time, "why hasn't religion died yet?". I think it creates guilt. It creates something you can only build yourself back up from using the religion. It is a viral, parasitic meme. The easy thing to forget after having thought these things through is that most are taught them when they are young and have no rationale. When we are young we are in learn mode, multiple experiments have been done showing this as compared to other apes who have a more instinctual logic, albeit amuch more limited one.

That is the greatest crime in my opinion. Teaching children what to believe instead of how to think for themselves. I have often debated if I will raise my children as "atheists" or not, and I think I would feel more guilt at teaching them something they would take as dogma then I would feel at giving them the tools to think, even if they later "found" religion.
 
Amperage
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 08:52 pm
@Scottydamion,
Scottydamion;131854 wrote:
Exactly, the idea of free will breaks down in a theist's argument when you ask them "who decided to create us to endure this gauntlet?". If god is all-knowing (or even if he just had common sense), he would know that he was sending the majority of the planet to hell by creating us, so the responsibility falls back on god. Even if hell was just separation from god, it is still a matter of where free will breaks down, obviously if there is a god almost everyone would want to know!
I just want to try to address this because I think this is a good question to raise, however, I think if we examine it a bit further we can see where the flaw is. Just to clarify what I think the question you're raising is, let me restate it. You're saying that if God is all-knowing, He would know before He creates us who is going to hell and who is going to heaven, so why even create the people who are going to hell, right?

It may be the case that no actual set of peoples exist such that if they were all in the same world together would ALL freely choose God.

What I mean is that it may be that by creating Person X, who will go to heaven, the next person, Person Y, will choose to simply do the opposite of Person X.

The point being because Person X chooses God the next person created will not choose God by virtue of the fact of not wanting to do what Person X does.

It may be the case that God could create a world in which everyone is saved, however, that world consists of ONLY 1 person. So the question becomes does God's being all loving compel Him to create a world in which only 1 person exists and is saved over worlds in which millions upon millions are saved but some are lost? IMO, No. Especially considering God has given sufficient grace for EVERYONE to be saved.
 
Scottydamion
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 09:01 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;132157 wrote:
I just want to try to address this because I think this is a good question to raise, however, I think if we examine it a bit further we can see where the flaw is.

It may be the case that no actual set of peoples exist such that if they were all in the same world together would ALL freely choose God.

What I mean is that it may be that by creating Person X, who will go to heaven, the next person, Person Y, will choose to simply do the opposite of Person X.

The point being because Person X chooses God the next person created will not choose God by virtue of the fact of not wanting to do what Person X does.

The point being it may be the case that God could create a world in which everyone is saved, however, that world consists of ONLY 1 person. So the question becomes does God's being all loving compel Him to create a world in which only 1 person exists and is saved over worlds in which millions upon millions are saved? IMO, No. Especially considering God has given sufficient grace for EVERYONE to be saved.


How does comparing population size make sense here? If god is all-loving then creating one person out of a million that would go to hell would be a sufficient reason to not create anyone at all. Is your idea of god so lonely that he has to create people in order to watch their puny lives play out? Why would a perfect god be "compelled" to do anything? Being compelled alludes to some subconscious force or a suggestion. You are invoking personification so much that you make your idea of god sound human.

"God has given sufficient grace for EVERYONE to be saved"

What a cop-out. If God (I'm assuming you're Christian btw) had given sufficient "grace" for everyone would not the entire planet be saved?
 
Krumple
 
Reply Wed 24 Feb, 2010 09:04 pm
@Amperage,
Amperage;132157 wrote:
I just want to try to address this because I think this is a good question to raise, however, I think if we examine it a bit further we can see where the flaw is.

It may be the case that no actual set of peoples exist such that if they were all in the same world together would ALL freely choose God.

What I mean is that it may be that by creating Person X, who will go to heaven, the next person, Person Y, will choose to simply do the opposite of Person X.

The point being because Person X chooses God the next person created will not choose God by virtue of the fact of not wanting to do what Person X does.

It may be the case that God could create a world in which everyone is saved, however, that world consists of ONLY 1 person. So the question becomes does God's being all loving compel Him to create a world in which only 1 person exists and is saved over worlds in which millions upon millions are saved but some are lost? IMO, No. Especially considering God has given sufficient grace for EVERYONE to be saved.


I honestly took some time with this one Amp, because at first I was completely clueless to what you meant by it. But how can what you state here be true? I mean I know there are people who judge a person simply on their look or behavior and remark saying they don't want to be like that person. But on the other hand, if what you say is true, there would be no such thing as pier pressure. Conformity would be hard to come by.

I just don't think it works how you stated. I mean I personally do not make decisions based off someone else nor would I want to take the inverse of their choices just because I didn't like what kind of person they were. I don't think, "Well this guy is a christian so I'll do everything he doesn't do." That is almost absurd reasoning, in fact I don't even think you can consider it reasoning. I might have actually used this line as a joke once just because it would be incredibly silly to base your actions off someone just because you didn't like a particular thing about them.

Does your ears ever smoke?
 
 

 
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