Pornography and Grace

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Camerama
 
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 03:55 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;121050 wrote:
Cam:
When speaking about religion in an empirical sense, there is normally no good reason to disagree with anything simply because there was no good reason to believe it it the first place.


And conversly, their is no good reason to agree. You are right, however, i guess thats why they call it faith.

GoshisDead;121050 wrote:
Thus when speaking of religion there must be a suspension of empiricism and a retention of mysticism. Mysticism allowing an entirely different base from which to argue a point. The two bases mysticism and empiricism are often mutually exclusive.


Sacrifice is at the same time both the most natural and most unatural of human behaviors.

I'm not following...

GoshisDead;121050 wrote:
Even though our whole lives consist of us sacrificing our desires for those of a 'greater cause/good' when we reflect we feel the sense of individuality and egoism that shows that we are not getting our way by acting in such a manner. The self in its self awareness realizes that it wants what it wants. This prompts rationalizations for self indulgent/promoting behaviors. The self being the aware self also comprises the animal self, the self which notices that it has the ability in many cases to get what it wants by acting contrary to the status quo. So it feels completely natural to not-sacrifice. Thus sacrifice comes naturally and not-sacrifice comes naturally.


When is it that we sacrifice? I hope asking for a personal example would not be too invasive?

GoshisDead;121050 wrote:
Sacrifice is often not understood in the context of actually making a sacrifice. A sacrifice is a transaction not theft. Sacrifice is the voluntary relinquishment of something important in exchange for something more important. Most often it is the voluntary relinquishment of a material thing for an immaterial thing, hence the feeling of sacrifice as theft, and thus the reason sacrifice cannot rightly be discussed on a purely empirical level. However, it is highly unlikey that someone would consciously sacrifice a material thing for an immaterial thing that they deemed had less value.


I find it difficult to call this a transaction. All transactions are referential to a hierachy of values. I believed it to be the exchange of value for value. Nontheless, in my experience, sacrifice always acquired negative conotations, with agent of sacrifice incurring a loss.(This is true at least commercially) Christianity asks man to devote all and any lifely achievement(s) to Christ. The doctrine asserts their is "no" fortune more noble than Christ, that man's life is subject to the whim of a divine being for which their is no sensory evidence. By virtue of Christianity, man enslaves himself to this whim, and in doing so abandons his freedom of thought as well as action. It is the abdication of life. And that is my problem with the faith. It subordinates will to whim. Not by virtue, but by sacrifice and inevitably suffering, are they admitted into the kingdom of heaven. Suffering is intrinsic to sacrifice, and sacrifice is intrinsic to Christianity. Suffering on earth will earn you bliss in an unprovable afterlife.

GoshisDead;121050 wrote:
Speaking specifically of religion, sacrifice becomes more specifically needed as a type of the inherent role is has in all life.


I can't make heads or tails of this:brickwall: Sacrifice is necessary for life?

GoshisDead;121050 wrote:
The very fact that sacrifice in its many avatars is so permiated in everything we do to maintain social order as social animals is a prime reason it is a central theme of religion. Assuming that God is the creator of all things, it stands to reason that one of the central tenets of man's natural behavior would be a central tenet to religion.


I would be grateful if you could exhibit the function of sacrifice in social order...Had you said it is a tool for control I wouldve agreed:lol:

GoshisDead;121050 wrote:
Also assuming the veracity of Christianity, why would God himself not sacrifice his son, and why would his son also being a God not sacrifice for his brethren? If we as humans maintain order through sacrifice why not God?


God sacrificing his divine son, for an ammoral humanity? Sounds like he took a loss.

Either way, for a greater good, or incurring a loss, sacrifice upsets balance.
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 04:20 pm
@Camerama,
I said I'd present my reflections on the subject, and there they are. They are reflections not up for argument. When you present something about this whole mess originiating in the O.P. that isn't opinion I will begin a debate.
 
Baal
 
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 06:56 pm
@GoshisDead,
Of course it's obvious that the original post did not suggest that his filth or his 'carnal desires' are wanted in the spiritual realm, or at least not necessarily in the sense of our own ethos and pathos.

The energy, the desire, the passion, the strength and the lust which accompany its subject matter (pornography) is wanted; in this sense it can be said that pornography is just a subverted manifestation of what is wanted by God, and that perhaps pornography has some special qualities which make it a suitable medium for such a manifestation. However this does not mean that pornography in itself is wanted and desired, it is a tool or a demonstration, an artifact of sorts.

As Gosh said, when dealing in a religious context, empirical observations and rational thought per se, in the sense of traditional secularism and scientific method must be limited or dominated by another set of axioms which cannot themselves be moved. Thus in a religious context, if we say "Jesus wants your pornography", the only logical (per above) way to explain this is within the confines of christian morality which vehemently rejects pornography; it has a deeper meaning, it has an alternate meaning, it is metaphorical, analogical - but never in itself something which negates the principles and bases upon which the authorities (e.g. the predicate, in the "Syllogism") reside. An explanation I offered above is a viable one, even if it may not be as easy to understand.

In the context of sacrifice, it can be said that the sacrifice involved here entails one changing and altering the object of his desire to be that of heavenly and not carnal contexts, that one subvert the energy he places in the transgressive and turn that into positive, spiritual energy, that with the zeal and passion that one enjoys pornography shall he enjoy or desire to do the word of God etc; a sacrifice, to replace the object which provides immediate satisfaction but only regresses thereafter with that which provides immediate regression and pain, but progress henceforth.
 
William
 
Reply Tue 19 Jan, 2010 07:41 pm
@QuinticNon,
If there is a thread that needs to be stricken from the record, this one should. Pornography and grace, what an insane grouping. Damn! Do not waste time using disparaging remarks. This is the last time I will visit this thread. It seems moderation has gone to sleep at the helm here. Oh, well!

William
 
QuinticNon
 
Reply Wed 20 Jan, 2010 09:32 am
@William,
William;121136 wrote:
If there is a thread that needs to be stricken from the record, this one should.


Why?

William;121136 wrote:
Pornography and grace, what an insane grouping.


Are porn addicts unfit for the grace of Christ? Perhaps I should have made it about drug addicts then. Are drug addicts unfit for the grace of Christ? How about liars? The profane? The greedy? The covetous? The lust full?

Which one of these characteristics is unfit for the grace of Christ? What good is grace without a decadence to offer it to?

William;121136 wrote:
Damn! Do not waste time using disparaging remarks.


You mean don't waste time with disparaging remarks like:
"Pornography and grace, what an insane grouping".

Without an explanation beyond nothing more than your opinion, have you not wasted time with your own comment?

William;121136 wrote:
This is the last time I will visit this thread.


Are you a man of your word?

William;121136 wrote:
It seems moderation has gone to sleep at the helm here.


No not at all. Apparently I accidentally posted the OP under the wrong category and moderation kindly directed it to the proper one.

---------- Post added 01-20-2010 at 09:36 AM ----------

Baal;121134 wrote:
The energy, the desire, the passion, the strength and the lust which accompany its subject matter (pornography) is wanted; in this sense it can be said that pornography is just a subverted manifestation of what is wanted by God...


Great word choice... "subverted manifestation".

Excellent insight. Thanks for the comment.

---------- Post added 01-20-2010 at 09:39 AM ----------

Camerama;121045 wrote:
My original post carried almost no weight


You are indeed a man of your word. Well done.

---------- Post added 01-20-2010 at 09:50 AM ----------

Camerama;121045 wrote:
It was the intrinsic value of the sermon i was primarily concerned with, not with it's external effects.


That "intrinsic value" is only valuable when weighed against the "external effects" it is designed to prosper.

Let's not limit this to just the porn addict. Grace is offered to anyone who has somehow managed to butcher the truth of their own life. It's the spiritual equal to getting a fresh start.

I'm a father. If my child were ever to fall into drug addiction, he would more than likely seek to hide that addiction from me. He knows it is wrong. He knows it destroys himself. And he is ashamed to let his father know of the mess he's made of his life. He does not wish to endure the judgment of his father. He does not wish to disappoint his father.

But if he understood grace, then he would also know that my love for him is stronger than my hatred for his addictions. Knowing this may provide him the only helping hand out of his addictions before they consume him entirely. The truth of his life is butchered. The grace of his father offers life anew.

---------- Post added 01-20-2010 at 10:05 AM ----------

Camerama;121109 wrote:
I would be grateful if you could exhibit the function of sacrifice in social order...Had you said it is a tool for control I wouldve agreed


Grace is not the same as Forgiveness. Grace is undeserved forgiveness without a memory.

Let's say a woman forgives her husband for infidelity. If she ever brings it up again in a later argument, then that is NOT grace. Grace must forget entirely.

Let's say I wreck your car uninsured. I can earn your forgiveness by paying to fix your car. But that's not grace. To offer me grace, I wouldn't have to earn forgiveness by fixing your car, and you would completely forget about it and never bring it up again.

Yes, you would take a loss. Your sacrifice would indeed take on a material and financial loss. But what kind of spiritual gain would you benefit from the ability to give grace to another human being?
 
QuinticNon
 
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 02:15 am
@Baal,
Baal;121134 wrote:
...and that perhaps pornography has some special qualities which make it a suitable medium for such a manifestation.


And what do you think those might be? Those "special qualities", that is...
 
William
 
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 06:32 am
@QuinticNon,
Ok, I lied. One more time. How much grace do you think Christ should allow before he comes back and slaps the sh*t out of us? Just how greedy do we have to get; how covetous; how lustful? How much are WE going to tolerate? Huh? Just how bad does it have to get before WE do something about it? I saw a bumper sticker once that said "Christ is back and boy is he Pissed". Ha! Yeah, I guess he would be.

William
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 07:08 am
@William,
William;121479 wrote:
Ok, I lied.

Bearing false witness?

Quote:
How much grace do you think Christ should allow before he comes back and slaps the sh*t out of us? Just how greedy do we have to get; how covetous; how lustful?

Would lies and profanity help?

---------- Post added 01-21-2010 at 08:09 AM ----------

William;121479 wrote:
I saw a bumper sticker once that said "Christ is back and boy is he Pissed". Ha! Yeah, I guess he would be.

Maybe threats would help?
 
QuinticNon
 
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 11:42 am
@William,
William;121479 wrote:
Ok, I lied.


We should all be willing to admit our faults. A good example for me and others. Well done William.

William;121479 wrote:
How much grace do you think Christ should allow before he comes back and slaps the sh*t out of us?


Purely from the Christian perspective (not necessarily my own), is it Christ that slaps us down, or is it the final result of our own life choices that slaps us down?

Consider, that with or without the Grace of Christ, would not our addictive natures be the end of us anyway? Are we suffering repercussions because of Christ, or because of the path we have chosen?

As well, if Christ is a "returning entity" as depicted in Revelation, is his return a mission of slapping down sinners, or one of freeing those who seek "the Truth, the Way, and the Life"? The sinner may feel slapped down, but is that not just a default consequence of the actual mission to prosper and elevate the meek and humble?

William;121479 wrote:
Just how greedy do we have to get; how covetous; how lustful?


I think the point of addiction begins when a person can define themselves by the traits of the addiction. When that addiction has actually become a part of who they are. It's as if a false God has been erected, and anyone who challenges the addiction is committing heresy against the false God.

William;121479 wrote:
How much are WE going to tolerate? Huh? Just how bad does it have to get before WE do something about it?


That is the point indeed William. It is in our hands alone. Christ will not make decisions for us. Christ will not interfere with our right to experience the full consequences of our actions. Interfering would deny us the lessons learned from falling.

William;121479 wrote:
I saw a bumper sticker once that said "Christ is back and boy is he Pissed". Ha! Yeah, I guess he would be.


If Christ is indeed a Deity, I would think he is beyond notions of revenge. He may be angry, but not at the sinner himself. He's angry that deception has conquered one of his children and misled them, consumed them, destroyed them.
 
William
 
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 11:55 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen;121483 wrote:


Bearing false witness?


Cute! Like a member of NAMBLA in court saying he just wants to be a positive influence in the life of a young boy! That kind of false witness?

Dave Allen;121483 wrote:
Would lies and profanity help?


At the time I made the statement, it was legitimate. I called it a lie to attract the likes of you. Wasn't that kind of me, Ha! The profanity was temper. Something's I am not tolerant of and it brings out the worst in me. Sorry!

Dave Allen;121483 wrote:
Maybe threats would help?


Depends? Some call it revolutionary tactics. Perhaps it is time for another revolution. It's been a few years since the last one. I got a feeling the next one will be a doozy!

William
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 12:12 pm
@William,
Yes a vengful intolerant Christ would have made the New Testement way more entertaining.
 
Dave Allen
 
Reply Thu 21 Jan, 2010 01:03 pm
@William,
William;121571 wrote:
At the time I made the statement, it was legitimate. I called it a lie to attract the likes of you. Wasn't that kind of me, Ha! The profanity was temper. Something's I am not tolerant of and it brings out the worst in me. Sorry!

Not being a fan of either porn or the bible I'm not really that concerned.

But I think it ironic that the wrathful had a go at the lustful.

Last time I heard they were both deadly sins.

The Catholic Church has referred to wrath as 'the deadliest of all sins'.

But they have their own issues with lust, I suppose.
 
 

 
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