If God created us...

@Aedes,

Aedes;102490 wrote:

Adam and Eve were not condemned to hell according to the Bible -- it says nothing about their afterlife. Yet they are the only example to my knowledge in the entire Canon of God himself imposing a specific punishment for a specific act.[/COLOR][/COLOR]

An act of what, imperfection? I'm specifically stating that god demands perfection from an imperfect creation. If you fail to recognise god as your creator you face hell and damnation, obviously a sign of imperfection by god.

@xris,

xris;102488 wrote:

I have scrutinised your post and I think your saying he is a conscious god capable of realising his creation. Could you confirm this , please?

Well divine "consciousness" would not be human "consciousness"but yes the divine takes in the "experience" of the world and preserves it.
Creation would be an ongoing process (hard work) not a completed act.
A God who struggles and suffers with and for his creation.
The divine would be in relationship to the word not a realtionship of the all powerful god to a powerless world but one of participation and cocreativity.

In any event it would be wrong to ask why the world is not perfect as opposed to appreciating the wonder of the world as it is: Without god: no world: just chaos and the formless void.
The universe as a whole as experiencing (in relation) not mindless mechanism.
Pan-en-theism. The creation of value, the actualization of possiblity.

@xris,

xris;102469 wrote:

So by your reasoning you actually dont know if god made us imperfect or not

No, I don't have knowledge as such. I don't presume to know the mind of God or the secrets of creation. However, I believe we are not perfect for two reasons

i) God is perfection, thus anything less than God is not perfect.
We must be careful here because it hinges on our definition of perfect.
If it is to mean perfect in totality then certainly only God can lay claim
to such a title. Perfection encompasses everything, and as God is infinite
then everything less than infinite and omnipotent is les perfect than God.

However, if you mean perfect in the sense that we have been given
what we require to to fulfil our purpose, that is perfect in the sense of
having all the required attributes to do so, then yes we are perfect in
as far as we have what we require and what we were desgned to have
(albeit with a later taint from the Fall)

ii) Experience tells us from everyday life that humans are weak and make all kinds of errors. However, this flaw is post creation and does not originate with God.

Quote:

but he imposed a certain judgement upon as if we were.

What makes you say that?
I don't think god judges us as if we were perfect. There was the sacrifice on Calvary, the Church, the sacraments, his forgiveness and mercy, etc
He wouldn't give us such things if we were thought to be perfect.
We are judged according to the fact that we are deemed to have what is sufficient to fulfil our purpose, not according to the erroneous assumption we are perfect.

Quote:

Now judgement involves eternal damnation and an eternity in hell, just for not being perfect.

Not because we are not perfect, no.
Rather, because we willingly defect from the good.

Quote:

He creates a species that he could possible work out he is not capable of making perfect but insists it attempts perfection

Again, no.
What leads you to believe that God wants us to attain what is unatainable for us? Even we can see that is an abusrdity, how much more so would an all-inteligent creator realise that? He created us to do what we were supposed to do. Through the influence of Satan and our own species' disobedience we became corrupted. God then sends a messiah to aid us in our redemption (ie, our return to goodness from error). None of this suggests he expects us to be perfect. Quite the contrary.

Quote:

and if it fails then its in the fire box. I take it you just fear this nutter and not exactly like him?

What nutter? God?
Of course I fear him, if there i such a beings as has power of your eternal future and is infinitely more powerful than anything you can imagine, who would not. But I don't tremble and cower. I like him first and foremost.
Why would I not like him? Because he can have me eternally damned for being evil? So I should dislike him because he is just?
I can understand why a lot of people dislike the idea of a God such as this, or prefer to disbelief. It is the reason mentioned in Plato's Laws with regards to atheists.

Without him what is the point of existence?

@xris,

xris;102491 wrote:

I'm specifically stating that god demands perfection

Is that specifically written anywhere?

@Aedes,

Aedes;102513 wrote:

Is that specifically written anywhere?

Would it matter if it was?
Just another version of the "problem of evil". Would a perfect and all powerful god create an imperfect world and imperfect beings and to what end?
The first two chapters of genesis the world is not perfect and neither is man.
It is the entire conception of the divine and diviine relationship to the world that is in error in these questions. No, the notion of the philosophical perfection and omnipotence of the divine is not biblical it is greek philosophical and the imperfect rationalism of the medieval scholastics. One would hope in the modern world we could form a better conception of divine action and divine nature.

@prothero,

prothero;102550 wrote:

Would it matter if it was?

Sure, because xris' assumption that God "expects perfection" in the Judeochristian tradition is a rather rare interpretation outside of monasteries. So why have the conversation if it's not germane to the religions we're discussing?

prothero;102550 wrote:

the notion of the philosophical perfection and omnipotence of the divine is not biblical it is greek philosophical and the imperfect rationalism of the medieval scholastics.

I agree, but even so such a philosophical perfection is not really held doctrinally to be God's expectation. One should strive for perfection, repent deviations from this striving, and maintain faith. That is rewarded. Imperfection is not condemned per se.

@Aedes,

Failure to perform to gods ideals is punishable by hell. The only way you can avoid this event is by being perfect. Imperfection will always fail at a certain point. Its not a matter of how well you perform, if your faulty it has the effect of not being a fair trial. Even us as humans don't expect faulty goods to be as ideal as those that are claimed as perfect.

It is the idea, that if god knows his creation is inclined to fail ,then his a bit harsh to say the least when it becomes evident that they have not lived above his efforts at creation.

@xris,

xris;102573 wrote:

Failure to perform to gods ideals is punishable by hell. The only way you can avoid this event is by being perfect.

Xris, according to the most common interpretations of Christianity, all you need are faith and repentance (and perhaps baptism) to go to heaven. Why on earth would Christians bother with confession if it wouldn't result in salvation??? Because there is nothing to confess if you're perfect.

@Aedes,

Aedes;102599 wrote:

Xris, according to the most common interpretations of Christianity, all you need are faith and repentance (and perhaps baptism) to go to heaven. Why on earth would Christians bother with confession if it wouldn't result in salvation??? Because there is nothing to confess if you're perfect.

Another sign that perfection is required. Only the perfect ones would recognise the necessity to acknowledge, but then they would not in the first place. You are refusing to accept the fact that god made us imperfect and then requires to judge that imperfection. Its illogical and if you cant see that then I'm truly amazed.

@xris,

xris;102611 wrote:

You are refusing to accept the fact that god made us imperfect and then requires to judge that imperfection.

First of all, I'm an atheist so I'm not really accepting this or that about God. I'm simply trying to communicate what the judeochristian belief system holds.

But no, I do NOT dispute that in this tradition humans were created imperfect -- or at least allowed to become imperfect (because babies are generally held to be free from sin).

What I refuse to accept is your unfounded exhortation that God requires perfection. This is not part of any tradition I'm aware of. If you can cite one in particular, and specifically it's doctrinal (or at least theological) source, then that would be informative.

xris;102611 wrote:

Its illogical and if you cant see that then I'm truly amazed.

What's amazing is that you're still not letting go of this erroneous notion of yours that to my knowledge is not part of the Christian or Jewish tradition, with the possible exception of severe asceticism.

@Yogi DMT,

If I may interject, what do you guys mean when you use the word "perfect" here? What does, "God is perfect", even mean?

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;102625 wrote:

If I may interject, what do you guys mean when you use the word "perfect" here? What does, "God is perfect", even mean?

That God can do nothing wrong. And that God has no defects.

@Aedes,

Aedes;102623 wrote:

First of all, I'm an atheist so I'm not really accepting this or that about God. I'm simply trying to communicate what the judeochristian belief system holds.

But no, I do NOT dispute that in this tradition humans were created imperfect -- or at least allowed to become imperfect (because babies are generally held to be free from sin).

What I refuse to accept is your unfounded exhortation that God requires perfection. This is not part of any tradition I'm aware of. If you can cite one in particular, and specifically it's doctrinal (or at least theological) source, then that would be informative.

What's amazing is that you're still not letting go of this erroneous notion of yours that to my knowledge is not part of the Christian or Jewish tradition, with the possible exception of severe asceticism.

So the revelations does not give us any clues to what might happen to those who dont obey gods laws. No where in the bible, old or new, do we see threats of hell fire or refusal to enter heaven if we dont act accordingly to gods teachings.:perplexed:

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;102632 wrote:

That God can do nothing wrong. And that God has no defects.

Then he can't be both omnipotent and perfect, right? These terms must be mutually exclusive, because, if he were omnipotent, he could also do what was wrong, as he could do anything. Also, wouldn't God have everything, including defects?

Something doesn't seem right here.

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;102638 wrote:

Then he can't be both omnipotent and perfect, right? These terms must be mutually exclusive, because, if he were omnipotent, he could also do what was wrong, as he could do anything. Also, wouldn't God have everything, including defects?

Something doesn't seem right here.

No. Omnipotence does not include doing what it is not in God's nature to do, and no, why would a perfect or omnipotent God have defects? It would be contradictory for Him to be perfect and have defects.

@xris,

xris;102637 wrote:

So the revelations does not give us any clues to what might happen to those who dont obey gods laws. No where in the bible, old or new, do we see threats of hell fire or refusal to enter heaven if we dont act accordingly to gods teachings.:perplexed:

I'm confused xris, for a moment there I thought you were talking about how God expects us to be "perfect".

But now you're talking about eschatology and about 'teachings'. Please clarify for me how these examples you cite support your as yet baseless idea that God is asking for PERFECTION.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;102640 wrote:

No. Omnipotence does not include doing what it is not in God's nature to do, and no, why would a perfect or omnipotent God have defects? It would be contradictory for Him to be perfect and have defects.

What is "God's nature"?

Are you saying an omnipotent God cannot do everything; that is, he can only do those things which are "in his nature"? Wouldn't that be contradictory to the whole omnipotent thing?

@Aedes,

Aedes;102641 wrote:

I'm confused xris, for a moment there I thought you were talking about how God expects us to be "perfect".

But now you're talking about eschatology and about 'teachings'. Please clarify for me how these examples you cite support your as yet baseless idea that God is asking for PERFECTION.

If he requires us to try and maintain his laws then he has expectations. If he new we would fail because of our imperfections, then the exercise is pointless. What in your opinion is failure and what is success? He may not judge us as perfect but he expects us to overcome our imperfections.

How can you judge anything that is not perfect? To point to an individual that may have caused millions to die by his failings, do you blame him for his imperfections or the god who claims his creation.

Your mind set is strangely earth bound in its logic of this god the creator. Why do you think he made us imperfect? This is the logic of all described gods, not just your selected biblical examples.

---------- Post added 11-09-2009 at 02:15 PM ----------

Zetherin;102642 wrote:

What is "God's nature"?

Are you saying an omnipotent God cannot do everything; that is, he can only do those things which are "in his nature"? Wouldn't that be contradictory to the whole omnipotent thing?

The described god has certain characteristics if you wish to describe him differently then its up to you to give us a credible description to debate. You cant suddenly change his appearance or make him a foggy indistinct figure.

@xris,

xris wrote:

The described god has certain characteristics if you wish to describe him differently then its up to you to give us a credible description to debate. You cant suddenly change his appearance or make him a foggy indistinct figure.

What has this to do with the contradiction I'm pointing out?

If God is omnipotent (I'm using a certain, common characteristic of God, am I not?), he should be able to do everything, mistakes included, right?

Where did you get the impression I'm making God a "foggy indistinct figure"? I was using the terms give to me; I was describing him as he's traditionally described!

(As if these metaphysical properties are all really clear and distinct, though...

but that's another thread.)

@Zetherin,

So your saying the accepted description of god is a schizophrenic fool? Could you tell me if this is just your opinion or the claimed opinion of the faiths.

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