[quote]It should be noted that this passage was a demonstration how theology is flawed and philosophy should be the method of understanding God's Word. [/quote]

If you considered more than one theology, you might have made some progress on this point. Thus far, you have considered a very narrow understanding of Christian theology. I'm not going to go through and point out all of such contested beliefs, as almost the whole of the post consists of such. But I will say that if you want to suggest philosophy as the way of understand God, you've a longway to go.

Okay right you have me there Didymos. Please let me rephrase my err. It should be noted that this passage was a demonstration how the doctrine of salvation is flawed and philosophy should be considered another method of understanding God's Word.

Fair enough. The general understanding of salvation, like many popular beliefs of Christians, is derived from a brand of Christianity deeply rooted in Paul.

As for philosophy, this depends on what you mean. If you mean "love of wisdom", sure, this sounds great to me! If you mean something closer to modern academic philosophy (which I do respect, and spend some time with), I would disagree.

The situation to bring up does ask an important question: How should we approach spiritual teaching? We could be more specific, and say Christianity, but my fear with this is that we might find Christianity to not offer a proper approach to spirituality, or we may find the best approach does not limit us to one tradition. I think starting with the broader question might prove to be more prudent than jumping to Christianity, specifically.

I for one don't believe in Christian theology, even though I was raised a Catholic. The belief in the ultimate salvation with respect to one's own beliefs depends on your their beliefs. If these so called 'incorrect' practicing Christians believe that they are saved, then who are we to judge. Not everyone can be a philosopher or can choice to be a philosopher for that matter. Today's western philosopher seems to be behind whatever makes people happy is the best course of action, sometimes the individual, sometimes the greater good (utilitarianism). If people believe that by choosing their faith and respecting it without fully understanding or regarding it for what it is, is the right thing to do and will lead them to salvation or the belief that they will reach salvation, then that's their right to chose to do so.

It seems to me that your definition on those that reach salvation would be only those like Mother Theresa and anyone short of that will be damned for eternity. For society to work there needs to be some underlining reason to do good over evil, to come back from past failures and learn from mistakes. It is true that a lot of Christians don't actually practice their faith to the extent that you put it, but Christianity is a broad religion, not everyone takes the Bible literally for example.

Theology and philosopher is a quest, nothing is written in stone. I don't want to offend people's beliefs, but to consider one theology correct over another is pretty ridiculous. The point of theology and philosophy in general is to try and get a better understanding of the world and to understand spirituality, the afterlife and the unmoved mover/creator (God). There is a reason that nothing happened in the Dark Ages, people took theology word for word, when in fact it is only generations of people's beliefs and understandings of the world.

What do you mean by philosopher? Anyone can love wisdom.



Is this possible? Is this what is best? Why should anyone believe what they do not understand?

Not to jump in or anything How about this, not everyone can philosophize.

Thanks for your kindred replies. Didymos I most certainly contend that I do seek wisdom and love it. Spiritual understanding is very important as you pointed out. I call it "Spiritual Philosophy" which is not an entirely new concept. I think some of what you are saying is blind faith if people don't understand their choice of faith like topherfox mentioned
This could be rather dangerous however if we could consider it blind faith. as Didymos pointed out.



Although topherfox I understand what I have to say seems hard but if we trust the Lord and he will make your paths straight. Being Saved is not easy in fact it is impossible on our own and only available through our dependance on the Father through Christ. Yes it may be that only person's of great faith will be saved but who amoung us will testify to truth? I tell you the truth not one of us is disqualified from entering heaven so long as he serves God with his whole heart which should show a whole commitment towards him and others.

Thank you for your insights and appreciate your candidness.

[quoute]Not to jump in or anything How about this, not everyone can philosophize.[/quote]

You should jump in!
Why can't everyone philosophize? Again, this goes back to the initial question: what is a philosopher? Only when we know this can we talk about what philosophers do.
If they love wisdom, then to philosophize is to love wisdom.



What do you mean by "saved"?



"who amoung us will testify to truth?" apparently you, huh?

Further, if things are as you say, why the need for Christ in particular? As long as we honestly serve God, you say, heaven is open to us, so what is the need for Jesus?

Still, my questions stand: can someone have faith, something other than arbitrary belief, without understanding? And even if they can, which I doubt, is it better to understand or not to understand? If it is better to understand, then should we condone lack of understanding?
And most importantly: why should anyone believe something they do not understand?

What I mean by "saved" is simply this. We live we die on planet earth nothing new under the sun. If this life is all there is then we have every reason to fear death however if there is real love outside of this life then we should die to protect it. This is the build here is the peak...Being "Saved" I can only describe it as this. We pass this life through some form of death come to the resurrection and are judged according to our lives. Then if we did in fact find favor in God through Christ he tells us "Welcome My good and faithful servant you have been saved from the wrath to come." Metophorically speaking of course.

As for the other issue you brought up that is something personal I have discovered through my philosophy. So forgive my selfishness by saying "who can testify to truth?" when I go on to say "I tell you the truth." I am no man of perfection. Forgive my overbearing.
Back to your question
I tell you the truth not one of us is disqualified from entering heaven so long as he serves God with his whole heart which should show a whole commitment towards him and others.
I am looking for reference will take a bit...

As for Christ well he is our Sin Sacrifice our blood atonement of the new covenant to find relationship and right standing with The Father.

Nothing new? Everything is at every instant new. What does not change?



What do you mean by "this life"?



Does God have the habit of creating things he does not favor?



Did Jesus say that? As far as I can tell, he died on the cross as an example: remember he says "Forgive them, they know not what they've done" regarding those who crucify him? Jesus knew what he was doing - speaking the truth. Those who killed him did not know this, so they killed him. Jesus shows us how to live, with love for all, and that we should love all even if it means our death. And that we should forgive those, even those who would have us killed.
The "new covenant" and "Sin Sacrifice", I'm not sure what you mean. You should know, I see no reason to take the OT literally, and every reason to take it allegorically. If your notions rely on a literally interpretation of the OT, you'll first have to defend that. Which, by the way, is a great topic in of itself.

People come and people go. people have died before me and will die after me death is not new under the sun.

"this life"?
Your existence on this planet however valuable you consider it. I for one one know you are very valuable.


One could say that yes. On the other hand however God finds Favor in those who live to please him. If we live a life full of sin he still Loves us but we are not close to his love because sin separates that connection. He loves you unconditionally but finds favor when we live by faith.

Did Jesus say that? I think you know but no he did not. but I said that whatever little weight I have. In response to the OT yes I do believe in Torah and based on those principles we have to sacrifice therefor the Messiah Yashua fulfilled the passage of sin sacrifice by becoming the sacrifice and fulfilled temple ordiance by being the temple.

So constant change is not new. Is there anything else that is not new?



Well, I appreciate that, the feeling is mutual, but what is my existence on this planet? Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, quite literally. As far as I can tell, there is nothing essentially Thomas - there is food, water, and countless other things which comprise what we call Thomas, but nothing essential to me. All of these things have existed prior to Thomas, and will continue after Thomas.



An all powerful, all knowing, purely good God makes things he does not approve of? Wouldn't he approve of it if it was good? And if he doesn't approve, then musn't it be something other than good? And if it is something other than good, and God made it, how can we call God good?



You think a collection of texts, written at different times, by different authors, which were originally oral traditions, told generation to generation, are literally true?

Further, the OT varies from Church to Church. Do you accept all potential OT material, or only some. And if you reject some, why?

I know this is alot of questions, sorry, but I really do not understand why people take the OT literally. From where I'm standing, some of it is clearly allegory, other parts are clearly culturally specific laws, other parts prophetic spiritual teaching, not all of which are consistent with one another.

Just that, some do not love wisdom, they love the ease of belief. I think philosophy has to be somewhat systematic, and some people just cannot think tht way. My wife, for example, whom I love dearly, just does not enjoy the type of thinking that philosophizing takes. Frankly, she can't understand why I spend hours everyday thinking about the things I think about.

I don't think it is possible for everyone to love wisdom in the way we do, the same way that I will never love pineapples. We are who we are, and for all that people try to change and shape us, certain things cannot be changed, and should not be changed about a person. We cannot all be Socrates (and I think we are fortunate for that!).

First off what is this Thomas? That must be new!



First off this is a powerful statement and while we all have our own viewpoints on God it is our personal choice who and what God is to us. On the contrary I believe we speak of the God of the universe and furthermore his qualities and attributes are surely "good" Charles Stanley once said something like "God Loves you so much that he doesn't let you just float through life giving everything you want and everything you need just so you will call him a good God." I believe this befits the scenario.



As far as God not approving of us if we are good. That's you reasoning yes? Well this should be obvious. God does not approve or excuse sin and calls to count every misdeed or careless word. He called the 6 day "very good" because man was made the highlight of God's creation. we are in a sense yes good because we are from God. But this reasoning must fall in line with the word of God which says wrath is for the wicked. Even Angels another of God's wonderful creations is not even as we are. Still when the Angels sinned they were sent to hell. Which is how Hell even exists. hell was not created for Man but for Satan and his Minions. However it is a unfortunate that a Loving and Wonderful God does punish the Sinner to Eternity of punishment. Is it fair that Dark Angels go to Hell forever? Well with this reasoning we say yes. But we should understand that if God will punish the Angels Eternally then he will Punish Man Eternally. He gave us the Bible to know him and there is little room for excuses. Even their memory will be wiped away from him. That is how serious sin is. Not the sinner, remember when you sin you are sinning against an Eternal creator and essentially for YOUR Eternity! Wrap your head around that. What I am getting here is we MUST be Relative to Eternity not what's temporary Why? Because we will either be punished eternally or rewarded eternally so what's temporary is very valuable too valuable so valuable that you don't have a second to lose. The enemy's trap is "we have got all the time in the world." When we do. But not to go around sinning that is the wrong way to live it will only lead to death. When we start living like we have one year to live we start to realize how to die and you only know how to live once you come to terms with death.

People are uncanny they either practice good or practice evil and some practice both. We inherant sin which causes our affliction however are all creations of God and life our existance every moment is a gift. Even if folk only live 50 years they would have experienced life and what they choose is up to them. God's Love is not a simple Love that he created a bunch of mindless machines or robots he gave us a free will to choose him or not your choice. We choose Death or we choose Life and what comes with it. If you ask how Can a Good God send a Good creation to Hell I say to you it was their choice to reject him and accept sin and the consequances are severe. However the rewards are very splendidly beautiful. Eternal Love that is something I won't live without. The "saved" will certainly call God good because they Love him and his wonderful beauty and gifts. However I think what you mean is how can the "sinner" call God good? Well because he gave you a life on this earth to do anything you want when you want to me he has given us our dreams. The earth is the dreamworld where we inhabit to either fulfill our calling or create our world of dreams. That is how God is Good.

de Silento -

That's fine, though a shame. What good is an easy belief you do not understand? I imagine this would be dangerous, if nothing else.



But what must it be systematic about? Maybe I'm just old school, but the bulk of philosophy is "know thyself". Remember, "the unexamined life is not worth living" - life. You don't have to make an academic study of philosophy to do philosophy, you just need to honestly consider the things you do, and why you do them.

I think this is what religion should be for. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle looked at issues relating to man - what is his environment like, what is he, what can he do, and why does he do things, what is the best thing for him to do, ect. Jesus does the same thing, his parables are a fantastic example of this, but his method is more easily accessable. That I think Jesus was far wiser than Aristotle is another issue.



No one can love wisdom in the same way - who could have the same wisdom? Differences are fine. Read Rumi, the great Muslim poet, if you want to read beautiful, simple, devotions to God. Profound, yet simple. Philosophy doesn't have to be complicated - Rumi was certainly a philosopher in my book.

Israelite007 -


I was refering to myself as an example.

I started to make responses to each of yours, but I've given up. You do not seem to understand the problem at all. Maybe I've not explained it very well. Maybe someone else can do a better job explaining the problem. It's a pretty famous objection to the common notion of God.

Unless you reject one of these premises:
1. God is all powerful
2. God is all knowing
3. God is good

I have no idea how any of your last post even begins to respond to the problem I've brought up.

I reject nothing of the sort Didymos