Christianity and Church

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pilgrimshost
 
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 10:18 pm
@Ragnell,
Well it was supposed to be the reason for my questioning what we know about Gods deity, as the shekina is the 'location of Gods presence, if you follow me.
 
Ragnell
 
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 10:21 pm
@Justin,
If you're asking for the 'location of God's presence', the answer is everywhere. ... That is what you were looking for, right? (even though I doubt this...)
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Fri 13 Oct, 2006 10:24 pm
@Ragnell,
Why do you doubt this?
 
Ragnell
 
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2006 08:04 pm
@Justin,
It merely did not sound like what you were looking for...
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Mon 16 Oct, 2006 08:05 pm
@Ragnell,
Hello Ragnell, is it possible to descuss this or are we just chatting?
 
Ragnell
 
Reply Sat 21 Oct, 2006 09:05 pm
@Justin,
I didn't know there was a difference.

Oh, but if you wish to bring up a point, I'll most gladly give it the ol' rigamaroo around my nogin and give an answer when the proper time comes.
I'll be standing by.
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 11:23 am
@Justin,
If I remember correctly you are a Christian, Ragnell are you not? so what do you think about the attributed deities given to YHWH then, and what of the Demonology aspect? Just throwing out a question I would be interested to hear your answer to.
 
Ragnell
 
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 09:28 pm
@Justin,
What mean you about the 'attributed dieties given to Yahweh'? Are you speaking of the 'Godhead Three? (as I've heard it said. Basically God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost.)

Demonology I find humorous and in it find not much more truth than Dragonology, nor that it should be given more heed to than Dragonology. Of course I believe that demons exist, but no one can summon them; mere mortal humans don't have that sort of 'power'. It's not to say that we can't control them when somone tries to cast them out of a possessed person, should that one have enough faith (that God will let him and He knows that the person casting out the demon is not doing so for selfish nor 'evil' reasons, per se).
For people who are debating whom to worship (God, demons, Satan, etc.) I suppose one can say that demons (including Satan) are weaker than God, not to mention the fact that they would consider you worthless if you did follow them and that their motives and purposes in their 'lives' are absolutly atrocious. Satan (plus the demons) was (were) kicked out of Heaven with ease, so it is quite obvious who's the weaker of the bunch. So, again, to the people debating whom to worship, why follow the weaker of them? Besides the bliss promised to you by the pure and all-righteous God, He is the most powerful of all.
That at least, is the beginning of an extremely long argument for my defending the Christian faith. And that's the beginning of an argument for just one mindset, too.
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 10:06 pm
@Justin,
So Lord 'blood thirsty', do you believe it is a proper assumption that YHWH has the deities of omnipreacence, omnipotence and omnicience? And how are you sure demons exist, the Bible isnt an option for reference, Im talking about personal experience?
 
Ragnell
 
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 10:16 pm
@Justin,
Do you mean the 'qualities' of omni-(insert one of your three words here)? If so, certainly.
How am I sure demons exist... hmm....
I am quite certain that I am ravaged by them all the time. Now I don't mean this like you'll here on the news about someone who's supposedly also 'ravaged by demons' and yells Satanic chants in the middle of the autobahn. It's just little things that can happen that I speak of. Also, whom else is the devil going to employ? Whomelse is he going to send to obssess (litterally, not figuratively) people? He can't do it himself, as he is not omnipresent nor omniscient like God (and that is not taking something from the Bible about demons directly, as you forbade me. I stayed within the boundaries).

Hah, "Lord blood-thirsty'... hah. That amuses me.
Anything else? I am here to serve.
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 10:34 pm
@Ragnell,
Back in the day I would have shared your beliefs, I wonder if you could have kept up with me as I 'ran faster' than the spirit could keep up, so to speak. I had so called experiences with demons, but what can we be sure of? Ive taken it to the brink and beyond, not knowing where it would take me, only knowing where it left me. Some would remain in their 'bubble' but I burst it, now I question if demons even exist (at present I think not). The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing us he didnt exist!
 
Ragnell
 
Reply Sat 11 Nov, 2006 10:41 pm
@Justin,
Hah, that last sentance was well put.
Perhaps I could have kept up with you, perhaps not. I do not pretend to have all the answers for this subject, but I do what I am able.
And I have to leave in a moment, so I'll pick this up within a few days (hopefully).
 
perplexity
 
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 04:41 am
@pilgrimshost,
pilgrimshost wrote:
..The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing us he didnt exist!


Rather than engender the distraction of the metaphysical speculation I would put it the other way around: The trick to mind most is the trick to deny our own responsibility, to have been so weak as to surrender to temptation.
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 09:59 am
@perplexity,
Quite true, perplexity. The Devil actually is a skape-goat for all those who lack integrity. Though the issue is more to the point about wheather that which we are tempted is actually wrong to be endullged?
 
perplexity
 
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 10:30 am
@pilgrimshost,
pilgrimshost wrote:
Quite true, perplexity. The Devil actually is a skape-goat for all those who lack integrity. Though the issue is more to the point about wheather that which we are tempted is actually wrong to be endullged?


... hence the difference between evil and immorality, which not so much in the doing of the right or wrong, but rather in the lack of the knowing which is which.

--- RH.
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 11:03 am
@perplexity,
As a rule, too much of anything is bad for you, all things in moderation. So is sin and immorality, more like a 'spiritual' conviction of which is a social values 'safty-catch'. Which means that morality is actually a product of the majorities values to maintain order, hence different peoples share different degrees of it. Its like in the feudal passed, religion was used by the king to scare the peasents to work hard, submit to him and pay taxes (or tithes) to him who is appointed by God;or the'd be burned in the fires of damnation for eternity!

After the peasants revolt in 1348, it was clear that the masses could have ultimate influence over the state if it chose to do so. This then gradually led to the firstly underminig of the soverignity of the crown, and later to revolution. Today religion in the west is a shadow of its former self, and the people are gradually taking their freedom back into their own hands. But like all other struggles that take hundreds of years, people dont know what to do when they get there, or worse, dont realise they even had it!
 
perplexity
 
Reply Sun 12 Nov, 2006 11:20 am
@pilgrimshost,
pilgrimshost wrote:

After the peasants revolt in 1348, it was clear that the masses could have ultimate influence over the state if it chose to do so. This then gradually led to the firstly underminig of the soverignity of the crown, and later to revolution. Today religion in the west is a shadow of its former self, and the people are gradually taking their freedom back into their own hands. But like all other struggles that take hundreds of years, people dont know what to do when they get there, or worse, dont realise they even had it!


It is only possible to suppose that the masses want democacy to the extent that one has not yet noticed their reluctance to participate, watching soap operas and Oprah Winfrey, not debates in Parliament, looking for the perfect parents that they never had, kids reluctant to grow up.

--- RH.
 
Aristoddler
 
Reply Wed 13 Dec, 2006 03:53 pm
@Justin,
I think Christianity has separated itself from the church in the past 30 years...in the name of commercialism and the almighty dollar.

(That oughta raise some hackles)
 
chad3006
 
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 12:06 am
@Aristoddler,
Aristoddler wrote:
I think Christianity has separated itself from the church in the past 30 years...in the name of commercialism and the almighty dollar.

(That oughta raise some hackles)


I agree that Christianity and the church have separated, however, I think it occurred much longer ago than 30 years.
 
Aristoddler
 
Reply Tue 9 Jan, 2007 01:04 pm
@chad3006,
Moreso in the last 30 than in the last 100, is what I was suggesting.

Think about the commandments in general.

Exodus 20:4
You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

So what's the first thing you see when you walk into the church?
Idols of Mary, Jesus and sometimes St Peter.

Exodus 20:5
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.


So why do people say Hail Mary's for penance? Why do people bow to the Virgin Mary? Why do people bow to statues and idols of Jesus?

Also when Paul was sent forth to go on his incredibly long travels, he was told by God to, "accept no coin nor cloth, staff or linen for teaching my word, as it is given to you freely, so shall you teach it freely."

But what's that collection plate for?

According to Matthew, Jesus said "Call no man your father on earth", and yet you've got clerics telling people to address them as "father'.

Jesus also said "No one is good but one - God." And yet the Pope is called the 'Holy Father'...seriously now.

I won't touch the topic of homosexuals in the church, but I will mention that God himself stated that the act of homosexuality is an abomination and against his law, and that these people should be ostracized from the rest of the flock...the "one bad apple" thought is behind that.
So homosexuals are not only allowed in some churches, but allowed to be part of the clergy and even get married in the church now.




So how has modern organized religion followed the teachings and disciplines of God's word?
Aside from the blatant disregard for his wishes, they've been doing pretty good.

When jesus was on the mount and the Devil tried to tempt him with the nations of the world if he bowed at his feet, he told him that the nations of the world were of no interest to him and that he would bow to no other than his father.
There are other places in the bible that state or suggest that religiously devout men should not partake in governing bodies of man...which are political by nature, and not serving god...but the modern religions not only take part in politics, but they even have their own country.

It might also be noted that the Vatican has the highest crime per capita in the world.
From Wikipedia:
As a result of the Vatican having a small resident population, but millions of visitors every year, the state has the highest per capita crime rate of any nation on earth, more than twenty times higher than that of Italy. In his 2002 report to the pontifical court, Chief Prosecutor Nicola Picardi quoted statistics of 397 civil offenses and 608 penal offenses. Each year, hundreds of tourists fall victim to pickpockets and purse snatchers. The perpetrators, who are also visitors, are rarely caught, with 90% of crimes remaining unsolved.

In my opinion...
Religion is best taught in the home as a system of beliefs and a way to live a clean lifestyle. It should be kept out of schools and out of government.
 
 

 
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