Can we know that something doesn't exist?

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Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 09:49 am
@hue-man,
Night Ripper wrote:

I'm saying that even with this true statement, it still doesn't imply that going faster than the speed of light is physically impossible.


Yes, it does. According to what the term physically impossible means. I've spelled it out for you many, many times. A physical impossibility is that which is contrary to known physical laws. How you still cannot understand this, I don't know. If you're just trolling the thread, please stop.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 09:54 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;137517 wrote:
First of all, you're talking about the laws of science again. Secondly, I've already explained that this has nothing to do with fallibility or skepticism. Regardless of what we can or cannot know, the following statement is either true or false, "nothing ever has or ever will travel faster than the speed of light". I'm already granting for the sake of argument that this statement is true and no mistake has been made. Discussion of fallibility is irrelevant. I'm saying that even with this true statement, it still doesn't imply that going faster than the speed of light is physically impossible.


No it doesn't. But why do you keep pointing this out? That statement is a conclusion from the statement that it is physically impossible for anything to travel faster than light. It isn't a premise. The proposition that is is physically impossible for anything to travel faster than the speed of light is a consequence of the inconsistency between the theory of relativity and the proposition that something travels faster than the speed of light.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 09:59 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137519 wrote:
Yes, it does. According to what the term physically impossible means. I've spelled it out for you many, many times. A physical impossibility is that which is contrary to known physical laws.


Which has absolutely nothing to do with my previous post. Why don't you read what I wrote and reply to my question instead of talking over me?

Let me try again, would you like to explain (in 1 post, not 3 pages) exactly how the true statement...

"nothing ever has or ever will travel faster than the speed of light"

...entails that it's physically impossible?

Do you see anything in that question about laws? No. So don't repeat your irrelevant claim: "A physical impossibility is that which is contrary to known physical laws."

Answer MY question, not some imagined question.

---------- Post added 03-08-2010 at 12:03 PM ----------

kennethamy;137521 wrote:
The proposition that is is physically impossible for anything to travel faster than the speed of light is a consequence of the inconsistency between the theory of relativity and the proposition that something travels faster than the speed of light.


You'll have to give me the entire argument so I can explain where your mistake is. Right now you're just retreating to an argument you can't even write out.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:05 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137512 wrote:
No, I didn't say that. We can know that some things do not exist, such as the Loch Ness monster. Why do you think I said we can't?

I am merely making the point that we are fallible. But our fallibility does not mean we can't know that things don't exist.

But has that to do with what I said?
I think this is the thing: the knowledge that the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist is intuitional knowledge.

The potency of intuitional knowledge can't be understated, especially as we communicate over the internet, because this technology wouldn't exist without intuition.

What makes us stop and say "Whoa horsey!" is that intuitional knowledge, as significant as it is in human life, is spooky and prone to appearing as a solid foundation for baloney. To demystify it would put us back at just realizing we could be wrong about Nessy.

To go too far in demystification would be a physics student who has no confidence that what has been called a law will manifest itself in today's laboratory exercise. That's a student who isn't going to graduate unless he allows himself to become a tad more intuitional.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:07 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;137525 wrote:
"nothing ever has or ever will travel faster than the speed of light"


Is a law. The law is a scientific generalization based on empirical evidence.

Quote:
...entails that it's physically impossible?


If the law were to be violated, it would mean that something physically impossible occured.

I don't know how else to answer your question. YOUR question. YOURS. ALL YOURS.

---------- Post added 03-08-2010 at 11:09 AM ----------

Arjuna wrote:

I think this is the thing: the knowledge that the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist is intuitional knowledge.


We can use what's called auto-epistemic reasoning to show that we know. Perhaps this is what you mean by intuitional knowledge. Is it?

Fallacy Files wrote:

Another type of reasoning is called "auto-epistemic" ("self-knowing") because it involves reasoning from premisses about what one knows and what one would know if something were true. The form of such reasoning is:

If p were true, then I would know that p.
I don't know that p.
Therefore, p is false.

For instance, one might reason:
If I were adopted, then I would know about it by now.
I don't know that I'm adopted.
Therefore, I wasn't adopted.

Similarly, when extensive investigation has been undertaken, it is often reasonable to infer that something is false based upon a lack of positive evidence for it. For instance, if a drug has been subjected to lengthy testing for harmful effects and none has been discovered, it is then reasonable to conclude that it is safe. Another example is:

If there really were a large and unusual type of animal in Loch Ness, then we would have undeniable evidence of it by now.
We don't have undeniable evidence of a large, unfamiliar animal in Loch Ness.
Therefore, there is no such animal.


Quote:

To go too far in demystification would be a physics student who has no confidence that what has been called a law will manifest itself in today's laboratory exercise. That's a student who isn't going to graduate unless he allows himself to become a tad more intuitional.


The student should have confidence, if the student is reasonable.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:12 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137528 wrote:
If the law were to be violated, it would mean that something physically impossible occured.


Alright I see the problem now, you're using a completely absurd definition of physically impossible. Here's my sane definition of physically impossible, "a state of affairs that can't happen".

Now, under this non-circular definition, how does the true statement...

"nothing ever has or ever will travel faster than the speed of light"

...entail that it's physically impossible? That such a state of affairs can't happen?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:16 am
@hue-man,
Night Ripper wrote:

Alright I see the problem now, you're using a completely absurd definition of physically impossible. Here's my sane definition of physically impossible, "a state of affairs that can't happen".


You should have already seen the problem pages ago. It is not an absurd definition, it is the definition. I've even provided a source. You completely ignored the definition and my posts explaining what physical impossibility means, and continued on your rampage thinking it was a "state of affairs that can't happen". With your underlined "can't" presumably meaning that we're claiming absolute certainty. But we never were. When we say can't, we mean according to our knowledge of the laws of physics! You are meaning something absolute when you write "can't".

A physical impossibility is a violation of a law of physics. Laws of physics are scientific generalizations based on empirical and mathematical evidence. No one is saying that laws of physics are absolutely correct, that is, we cannot be wrong about them. But there is no reason to think they aren't correct, which is why they are laws! And according to the laws, we would say anything in violation can't happen!
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:21 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137532 wrote:
You should have already seen the problem pages ago. It is not an absurd definition, it is the definition. I've even provided a source. You completely ignored the definition and my posts explaining what physical impossibility means, and continued on your rampage thinking it was a "state of affairs that can't happen". With your underlined "can't" presumably meaning that we're claiming absolute certainty. But we never were. When we say can't, we mean according to our knowledge of the laws of physics! You are meaning something absolute when you write "can't".

A physical impossibility is a violation of a law of physics. Laws of physics are scientific generalizations based on empirical and mathematical evidence. No one is saying that laws of physics are absolutely correct, that is, we cannot be wrong about them. But there is no reason to think they aren't correct, which is why they are laws! But according to the laws, we would say anything in violation can't happen!


No, I'm sorry. Until you can accept that "physically impossible" means "a state of affairs that can't happen" we're not going anywhere.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:22 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;137536 wrote:
No, I'm sorry. Until you can accept that "physically impossible" means "a state of affairs that can't happen" we're not going anywhere.


So, until I incorrectly use the term to suit your liking, we aren't going anywhere? Alright, buddy. But if you want to use the term correctly, you can listen to what I've said. Or, you know, try google to find another source (one of which I already provided).
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:32 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137538 wrote:
So, until I incorrectly use the term to suit your liking, we aren't going anywhere? Alright, buddy. But if you want to use the term correctly, you can listen to what I've said. Or, you know, try google to find another source (one of which I already provided).


I'm not going to sit here and argue over common knowledge. If something is physically impossible then it's a state of affairs that can't happen. It definitely isn't a state of affairs that can happen.

There's nothing controversial about my definition so for you to fight against it seems rather silly and desperate. Do you really think physically impossible means it can happen?
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:34 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;137542 wrote:
I'm not going to sit here and argue over common knowledge. If something is physically impossible then it's a state of affairs that can't happen. It definitely isn't a state of affairs that can happen.

There's nothing controversial about my definition so for you to fight against it seems rather silly and desperate. Do you really think physically impossible means it can happen?


I told you, you are using "can't" differently. When any scientist uses the term, it is implied according to the laws of physics. When you use the term, you don't mean only according to the laws of physics, you mean it absolutely cannot happen period, as if it were logically impossible. But that is not how the term is used! Physical impossibility does not mean logical impossibility. All things which are logically impossible are physically impossible, but all things which are physically impossible are not logically impossible.
 
Arjuna
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:36 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137532 wrote:
Y But there is no reason to think they aren't correct, which is why they are laws! And according to the laws, we would say anything in violation can't happen!
No, I wasn't talking about auto-epistemic conclusions. I was talking about intuition. I was going to try to explain how it is that knowledge of natural law is intuitional knowledge, but intuition tells me that there's no point in that. Hey! It's a sunny day where I am.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:37 am
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;137545 wrote:
No, I wasn't talking about auto-epistemic conclusions. I was talking about intuition. I was going to try to explain how it is that knowledge of natural law is intuitional knowledge, but intuition tells me that there's no point in that. Hey! It's a sunny day where I am.


That wasn't written to you, so you know. But I do not know what intuitional knowledge is, so I can't comment on what you're saying. Also, do you mean natural law, or laws of nature? We are talking about laws of nature here.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:41 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137544 wrote:
When you use the term, you don't mean only according to the laws of physics, you mean it absolutely cannot happen period


Yes, stupid me for thinking that "physically impossible" means "absolutely cannot happen". All this time "physically impossible" really meant that it can happen!
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:45 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;137547 wrote:
Yes, stupid me for thinking that "physically impossible" means "absolutely cannot happen". All this time "physically impossible" really meant that it can happen!


Well, it is stupid you, considering I've spelled it out for you countless times and you've ignored my posts. If you had read my posts 10 pages ago, you would have known that physically impossible means that which is in violation of the laws of physics. Also, physically impossible does not mean what can happen. It means what can't, considering the laws of physics. But it doesn't mean it can't in the same way we would say something which is logically impossible, can't. For instance, the theory of gravity is a law of physics, and a violation of this law would be a physical impossibility. However, it is still logically possible we could be in a world without gravity.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:53 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137548 wrote:
But it doesn't mean it can't in the same way we would say something which is logically impossible, can't.


You're right but unfortunately I've never held that position. That's because logic deals with conceivability, not existence. However, before you can say whether or not some "thing" exists, you have to be able to conceive of it. I can conceive of a unicorn and that allows me to say "unicorns don't exist". I can't conceive of a married bachelor.

However, back to my point. If something is physically impossible, that means it physically can't happen. If something is physically possible, that means it physically can happen. I really hope you're still with me on this because this seems awfully uncontroversial.

Now, how does the true statement...

"nothing ever has or ever will travel faster than the speed of light"

...entail that it's physically impossible?

It doesn't, unless you've committed the modal fallacy.

You're also welcome to explain how a theory shows something can't happen as well but I assure you that theory will have the same flaw.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 10:56 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;137551 wrote:
You're right but unfortunately I've never held that position. That's because logic deals with conceivability, not existence. However, before you can say whether or not some "thing" exists, you have to be able to conceive of it. I can conceive of a unicorn and that allows me to say "unicorns don't exist". I can't conceive of a married bachelor.

However, back to my point. If something is physically impossible, that means it physically can't happen. If something is physically possible, that means it physically can happen. I really hope you're still with me on this because this seems awfully uncontroversial.

Now, how does the true statement...

"nothing ever has or ever will travel faster than the speed of light"

...entail that it's physically impossible?

It doesn't, unless you've committed the modal fallacy.

You're also welcome to explain how a theory shows something can't happen as well but I assure you that theory will have the same flaw.


I now understand. The term physically impossible is meaningless to you, because no matter how much empirical evidence we present, you will never accept that something cannot happen. No matter what example we use, you will not accept that that thing is physically impossible, stating that to say it is physically impossible is to commit the modal fallacy.

Isn't that right?
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 11:02 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137554 wrote:
I now understand. The term physically impossible is meaningless to you, because no matter how much empirical evidence we present, you will never accept that something cannot happen. No matter what example we use, you will not accept that that thing is physically impossible, stating that to say it is physically impossible is to commit the modal fallacy.

Isn't that right?


I don't think it's meaningless but it is untestable. We have two possible interpretations:

1. "nothing ever has or ever will travel faster than the speed of light"

2. "nothing can travel faster than the speed of light"

The problem is that (2) looks exactly like (1) in all possible experiments. There's no experiment you can perform that can falsify one of these two statements but not the other.

Personally, asserting the existence of untestable things, such as mysterious laws that control what can and cannot happen, makes me uneasy.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 11:09 am
@Night Ripper,
Night Ripper;137556 wrote:
I don't think it's meaningless but it is untestable. We have two possible interpretations:

1. "nothing ever has or ever will travel faster than the speed of light"

2. "nothing can travel faster than the speed of light"

The problem is that (2) looks exactly like (1) in all possible experiments. There's no experiment you can perform that can falsify one of these two statements but not the other.

Personally, asserting the existence of untestable things, such as mysterious laws that control what can and cannot happen, makes me uneasy.


No one can test "ever will". We can only induce based upon our previous empirical experience in matters such as these. The consistent patterns we have observed in this physical world, and which have never been violated, we call laws of physics.

Your problem is that you think that because we could be wrong, we should not be certain. But any fallibilist already implies there is room for error, no matter what is said. But that doesn't mean that we should doubt what we think is true. And that certainly does not mean that what we think is true isn't true. We should think it probably is true, seeing as we're reasonable people.

You're putting such a stranglehold on this term because of your own personal feelings on certainty and our ability to know, I think.
 
Night Ripper
 
Reply Mon 8 Mar, 2010 11:14 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;137559 wrote:
No one can test "ever will".


But it can be falsified, if we ever observe something traveling faster than light. That's not possible to do with "nothing ever has or ever will travel faster than the speed of light" vs. "nothing can travel faster than the speed of light". That's the difference.


Zetherin;137559 wrote:
Your problem is that you think that because we could be wrong, we should not be certain.


No, you've completely missed the boat. I've told you repeatedly that my skepticism is irrelevant to this issue. It would be better if you didn't comment on me personally at all and instead focused on the issues.
 
 

 
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