defining truth

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Fido
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 11:53 am
@Holiday20310401,
Jesus was a human being... What would have been the sacrifice of Jesus of his life if he had as many lives as he wanted??? Was his suffering of death his sacrifice??? Then we are all going to make that one...
 
north
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 08:32 pm
@Fido,
Fido;146763 wrote:
Our forms are identical to the phenomenon with which we identify them... Are you trying to say that the phenomena can be only what they are??? Because our perceptions of what they are, are always in flux, always changing as our general understanding of things increases...


our perceptions are only relevent to our selves , to knowledge , understanding and at this moment in time

to the thing its self , it is what it is and always has been
 
Fido
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 09:13 pm
@north,
north;147321 wrote:
our perceptions are only relevent to our selves , to knowledge , understanding and at this moment in time

to the thing its self , it is what it is and always has been


Not... Our perceptions may be individual as is our experience of life, but we survive as a group, and that requires communication and communication requires forms, which as always, are forms of relationship as well, and beside your point, knowledge, and understanding would be impossible if it were only kept to ourselves... Culture is knowledge and knowledge is judgement, and every form/idea/concept/notion is a judgement, something true about some facet of reality that must be shared in order for it to be built upon, and expanded... Survival, which you seem to take for granted is no where assured, and knowledge is the difference between death and survival....
 
north
 
Reply Thu 1 Apr, 2010 10:40 pm
@Fido,
Fido;147346 wrote:
Not... Our perceptions may be individual as is our experience of life, but we survive as a group, and that requires communication and communication requires forms, which as always, are forms of relationship as well, and beside your point, knowledge, and understanding would be impossible if it were only kept to ourselves... Culture is knowledge and knowledge is judgement, and every form/idea/concept/notion is a judgement, something true about some facet of reality that must be shared in order for it to be built upon, and expanded... Survival, which you seem to take for granted is no where assured, and knowledge is the difference between death and survival....


so is defining truth based on a group , culture , knowledge , judgement , form , concept ?

yes and no

the important thing to remember is that the more we gather information the closer we get to the truth of the object

the object does not care at all about our perception of it .... it just continues on being what it is

I take survival for granted ? how so ?
 
PappasNick
 
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 08:09 am
@north,
north;147403 wrote:

the object does not care at all about our perception of it .... it just continues on being what it is


Human beings - many of them, at least - care about how they are perceived when they are the objects of perception. Do they just continue on being what they are when perceived, as you describe for an object, or can they / do they somehow change? What is the truth about a person - what he is when he is unobserved, what he is when observed, or both? I'm inclined to say that it is both and that many people can and do change when they are the objects of perception.
 
Fido
 
Reply Fri 2 Apr, 2010 10:00 am
@north,
north;147403 wrote:
so is defining truth based on a group , culture , knowledge , judgement , form , concept ?

yes and no

the important thing to remember is that the more we gather information the closer we get to the truth of the object

the object does not care at all about our perception of it .... it just continues on being what it is

I take survival for granted ? how so ?


How much information do you think you gather on your own???...

Culture is knowledge and the best of us can add only little to what humanity already knows, and if we could learn something new, it would already be framed by the knowledge we have gratis, by our being the product of our cultures...If we could learn allone, we could not classify without the help of society...

I was not saying that our perception of objects changes objects, yet, in fact, it often does, as when we view the life of nature as an object and proceed to make it so...What is nature without life... What is humanity as an object... So soon as people can be labeled as something, an object they are less than human, as humans cannot be labeled as an object, wiith the result that those so labeled often removd from their human rights, are killed, and are made objects in fact..
 
north
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 08:47 pm
@Fido,
Fido;147529 wrote:
How much information do you think you gather on your own???...


to the extent of my or your ability

Quote:

Culture is knowledge and the best of us can add only little to what humanity already knows, and if we could learn something new, it would already be framed by the knowledge we have gratis, by our being the product of our cultures...If we could learn allone, we could not classify without the help of society...


true

Quote:
I was not saying that our perception of objects changes objects, yet, in fact, it often does, as when we view the life of nature as an object and proceed to make it so...


life of nature as object ?

my fault

when I talk of objects I wasn't referring living beings

but to non-living things



Quote:
What is nature without life...


the Universe without living beings in it , which is really impossible


Quote:
What is humanity as an object...


Humanity


Quote:
So soon as people can be labeled as something, an object they are less than human, as humans cannot be labeled as an object, wiith the result that those so labeled often removd from their human rights, are killed, and are made objects in fact..


this is NOT what I meant by objects , my fault

the objects I was reffering too are protons , electrons , galaxies , suns , planets , moons etc
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 10:37 pm
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401;142790 wrote:

If all is ineffable by default -just pretend- then perhaps truth is that which is required only when the ineffable needs to be communicated. If there is no need to communicate it, if there is no need or use to be attached to it, then truth is not necessary, and nonexistent?


For me, the ineffable is also the unthinkable. For me, thought itself is lingual. Now I'm not denying that experience is often ineffable/unthinkable, but then I think we often do feel an urge to communicate this same "unthinkable," and often do so by means of music, gesture(aka dance,acting, etc. ), painting, sculpture, .......murder, suicide, mountain climbing.

It just occurred to me. Why is smothered mate (in chess) so satisfying? A person can give reasons, but can the subject be exhausted? Form is form, and it exists in different formal dimensions. What is the redness of red? This doesn't seem effable, or is only effable in the practical sense.

---------- Post added 04-06-2010 at 11:44 PM ----------

PappasNick;147507 wrote:
Human beings - many of them, at least - care about how they are perceived when they are the objects of perception. Do they just continue on being what they are when perceived, as you describe for an object, or can they / do they somehow change? What is the truth about a person - what he is when he is unobserved, what he is when observed, or both? I'm inclined to say that it is both and that many people can and do change when they are the objects of perception.



I agree that we are both. To use a math metaphor, you might describe a person as a function of their environment. I see the notion of an individual as a useful abstraction. But the "truth" seems to be that we are utterly immersed on our world-experience. Where is the border between the seen and the seer, the doer and the done? It's all conceptual and this concept is indeed an evolving system. This is all quite Hegel. No finite thing has genuine being. The self and the other are one. The self and the world are one. And yet it is still useful and justified to talk as if the opposite were true, for the opposite is true, depending upon the purpose of a sentence in its temporal context.

I agree with Hegel that what makes us human is our desire for desire. We want to be recognized by an other. Our animal or lower selves are satisfied with food or shelter, but our spiritual cultural selves desire a living community, in which we are recognized as free, unique, and worth, etc.
This explains duels. Men will sacrifice/risk their animal life for cultural-spiritual recognition. This also explains the starving artist, the unmarried priest, etc.
 
north
 
Reply Tue 6 Apr, 2010 11:28 pm
@Reconstructo,
so is defining truth based on social thinking or is defining truth based on things in the without ?

this is what we havn't defined

the ultimate truth is from the without and it is the without on which we are based , how we as Humans came to be , to evolve to the point of dwelling upon

social thinking is after our very possiblity of existence in the first place
 
 

 
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