What came first:Belief or understanding?

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Alan McDougall
 
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2009 11:41 pm
@Shlomo,
In my opinion sadly often people believe before they understand and 2+5 =5.

A case in point would be the appalling acts done in the name of God
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2009 11:45 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;106270 wrote:
In my opinion sadly often people believe before they understand and 2+5 =5.

A case in point would be the appalling acts done in the name of God


Whether believing implies understanding may be controversial, but it is clear that understanding does not imply believing.
 
Alan McDougall
 
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2009 12:16 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;106272 wrote:
Whether believing implies understanding may be controversial, but it is clear that understanding does not imply believing.


You are correct, one can understand the dogma of a religion without believing in it, but one can believe in something without understanding, take the atom bomb most people believe and know its awesome power with no understanding of how it works
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2009 12:26 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;106282 wrote:
You are correct, one can understand the dogma of a religion without believing in it, but one can believe in something without understanding, take the atom bomb most people believe and know its awesome power with no understanding of how it works


You are switching what people believe and people understand. The question is about whether people can believe but not understand one and the same thing. The same proposition. Could I, for instance, understand what it means to say that all cats are mammals, but not believe it. Yes. Can I believe that all cats are mammals, but not understand what that means? No.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2009 01:12 am
@kennethamy,
You say that "we know more today, etc." I want to call attention to the fact that you say "we know." This "we" is a reference to consensus. And consensus is the foundation of truth, for truth is a property of sentences. It was Rorty, especially, who persuaded me to view truth this way.

The world is full of disagreement. Both sides present their reasons. Right now, even, we are debating the nature of truth. And yet both "truth" and "nature" are words that evolved historically, from metaphorical roots. Logos is slimy. I identify very much with the linguistic turn in philosophy. I cannot respect any epistemology that ignores an investigation of what words are, for philosophy is made of words.

I'm quite fond of formal logic and mathematics and even have experience programming computers. I came to philosophy with left-brain expectations. It was my passion for epistemology that led me to see rhetoric and not logic as the foundation of philosophy. You could say that I abandoned a mechanical view for an organic view. I suspect that Wittgenstein underwent a similar transformation. I think we need to look at man more holistically, and ask ourselves if there really is a will to truth or if truth is just a means. No doubt some make an idol of Truth, but this itself is to act in a mythological way.
Man wants a mission, a virtue to identify with. For some this mission is certainty. For others creativity. For some it's not a mental virtue at all, but something physical..And then some pride themselves on money. My epistemology is based on motive and medium. Why do we hold opinions and what are these opinions made of?

"All the worlds a stage and all the men and women merely players.." One could consider Shakespeare and Tristan Tzara philosophers.
 
Shlomo
 
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2009 01:31 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;106292 wrote:
...for truth is a property of sentences. ...

Does it mean that true love, for example, is made of correct sentences?
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2009 01:33 am
@Mutian,
No. True love is made of a good wife and lots of pillow talk. Wink
 
Shlomo
 
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2009 01:35 am
@Reconstructo,
cancelled. see my reply below on the page.:nonooo:
 
IntoTheLight
 
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2009 01:36 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;106174 wrote:
Since we cannot believe something without understanding it, it follows that understanding precedes belief.


I completely disagree.

On exactly what do you base your idea that "we cannot believe in something without understanding it"?

-ITL-
 
Shlomo
 
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2009 01:39 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;106299 wrote:
No. True love is made of a good wife and lots of pillow talk. Wink

Sounds much better than just sentences :bigsmile:

---------- Post added 11-27-2009 at 11:21 AM ----------

IntoTheLight;106302 wrote:
I completely disagree.

On exactly what do you base your idea that "we cannot believe in something without understanding it"?

-ITL-

On understanding the question of the OP.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Fri 27 Nov, 2009 02:42 pm
@Mutian,
Shlomo, I agree with you, absolutely, that true love is better than any sort of property of sentences.

Responding more seriously, we must distinguish between "true" and "truth" and also acknowledge that the meaning of word is dependent upon its context.

Generally, we say that something is the "truth" is this something is a sentence that is the case. The sentence has the property of accurately describing the "world" or "that which is the case." We are assuming there is something outside of our language that our language refers to. In a practical sense, I agree with this assumption. But in a logical sense, this world exists conceptually only in our descriptions of said world.

We call a description true if it makes sense next to our most cherished descriptions. Fred tells Joe that he has seen a ghost. But Joe doesn't "believe" in ghosts. For Joe, "there is no such as ghost" is a cherished description, and for that reason incompatible with Fred's description of an experience. So Joe offers Fred a redescription of Fred's experience. "You were hallucinating."

There's a certain amount of prejudice on both sides, I think. And for that matter a certain amount of prejudice in all humans. All science (knowledge) is conjecture. I describe it as good enough, but never absolute and perfect. Always amenable to editing in the face of experience.

This view is something I assimilated from Rorty, Nietzsche, etc. I'm not nearly as original as I would like to be.
 
Shlomo
 
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2009 05:10 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;106429 wrote:
Shlomo, I agree with you, absolutely, that true love is better than any sort of property of sentences.

Responding more seriously, we must distinguish between "true" and "truth" and also acknowledge that the meaning of word is dependent upon its context.

Generally, we say that something is the "truth" is this something is a sentence that is the case. The sentence has the property of accurately describing the "world" or "that which is the case." We are assuming there is something outside of our language that our language refers to. In a practical sense, I agree with this assumption. But in a logical sense, this world exists conceptually only in our descriptions of said world.

We call a description true if it makes sense next to our most cherished descriptions. Fred tells Joe that he has seen a ghost. But Joe doesn't "believe" in ghosts. For Joe, "there is no such as ghost" is a cherished description, and for that reason incompatible with Fred's description of an experience. So Joe offers Fred a redescription of Fred's experience. "You were hallucinating."

There's a certain amount of prejudice on both sides, I think. And for that matter a certain amount of prejudice in all humans. All science (knowledge) is conjecture. I describe it as good enough, but never absolute and perfect. Always amenable to editing in the face of experience.

This view is something I assimilated from Rorty, Nietzsche, etc. I'm not nearly as original as I would like to be.

Reconstructo,

If you put a fish in vicinity of a cat, the fish is sentenced. Does it mean that the cat has formed any truthful sentence in its head about the fish being located at a certain position? And if there is more than one cat around and only one fish, would you expect consensus between them? If no, then truth is not necessarily linguistic.

You point out that we can endlessly improve our knowledge by verifying it experimentally. I totally agree. This "improving" means coming closer to an objective truth, otherwise it would be just arbitrary change and not improvement. But if so, this objective truth exists regardless of our sentences.

We need logic to develop true concepts, but we need rhetoric to make others accept them. Use left side of your brain along with the right side - both are given for your benefit.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2009 07:40 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;106292 wrote:
You say that "we know more today, etc." I want to call attention to the fact that you say "we know." This "we" is a reference to consensus. And consensus is the foundation of truth, for truth is a property of sentences. It was Rorty, especially, who persuaded me to view truth this way.

The world is full of disagreement. Both sides present their reasons. Right now, even, we are debating the nature of truth. And yet both "truth" and "nature" are words that evolved historically, from metaphorical roots. Logos is slimy. I identify very much with the linguistic turn in philosophy. I cannot respect any epistemology that ignores an investigation of what words are, for philosophy is made of words.

I'm quite fond of formal logic and mathematics and even have experience programming computers. I came to philosophy with left-brain expectations. It was my passion for epistemology that led me to see rhetoric and not logic as the foundation of philosophy. You could say that I abandoned a mechanical view for an organic view. I suspect that Wittgenstein underwent a similar transformation. I think we need to look at man more holistically, and ask ourselves if there really is a will to truth or if truth is just a means. No doubt some make an idol of Truth, but this itself is to act in a mythological way.
Man wants a mission, a virtue to identify with. For some this mission is certainty. For others creativity. For some it's not a mental virtue at all, but something physical..And then some pride themselves on money. My epistemology is based on motive and medium. Why do we hold opinions and what are these opinions made of?

"All the worlds a stage and all the men and women merely players.." One could consider Shakespeare and Tristan Tzara philosophers.


Knowledge has nothing to do with consensus, since nothing is knowledge unless it is true, and truth has nothing to do with consensus.

But even if you were right, everyone agrees we know more than we did 100 years ago, and we will know more 100 years hence. And most of this knowledge is scientific knowledge.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2009 05:08 pm
@kennethamy,
The very language we use to debate this point has developed socially. That we can communicate at all is dependent upon an imperfect consensus as to what the words we use mean.

Our mental models of reality, knowledge, consensus, etc., are made of these same words. These same mental-models are constantly being edited by every living individual.
Science is great, and it too is explicitly based on consensus. The repeatability of experiments is an expression of the demand for consensus, the consensus of those initiated into the method of science. And science is not only equations but also concepts like force, causality, mental-models, experiment, etc. So science too is based upon language, which is a messier thing than most suppose.

I think there is a strong emotional attachment to the concept of objective reality, beyond the practical use of the concept. We want an anchor. We want to connect ourselves with something transcendent, something more pure than mere consensus.

The philosopher and the scientist are descendants of the priest and the alchemist. Let us always examine the motives behind our arguments. We are not cold pure dialectical calculators. We are highly socialized predators, eager for status. But this is hardly an exhaustion of the subject, for the subject is inexhaustible. And I gladly confess that my knowledge is provisional.
 
Null-A
 
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2009 09:06 pm
@Reconstructo,
This isn't rocket science..

The brain has a feature known as "auto associative memory", which "enables one to retrieve entire memories from only a tiny sample of itself." Autoassociative memory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So as you would expect... since most of us have hundreds of memories where your staring directly at a chair, and someone says "Chair!". Next time you hear this word.. you can recall chair visual stimuli.

Same concepts apply to animals... they form nervous system associations between emotions, sensory experience, etc. Obviously they aren't constructing english sentences in their brain...
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2009 10:22 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;106717 wrote:
And I gladly confess that my knowledge is provisional.


Certainly, if that means that what we think we know, we might later discover we did not know. That we sometimes mistakenly believe we know. But if what "knowledge is provisional" means is that what we know may later turn out not to be true, that is false because it implies a contradiction, and is, therefore, itself, a contradiction.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sat 28 Nov, 2009 11:42 pm
@Mutian,
But to say that we are mistaken is to say that we are mistaken in relation to something, a something I am skeptical about. In a practical sense, the "mirror of nature" paradigm is great, quite useful, one of mankind's best inventions. But perhaps for some purposes it is obsolete.

As I don't recognize any unchanging absolute, mistakeness itself is relative. You can think of it as a dynamic or pragmatic theory of truth. And I agree with Rorty that truth is a property of sentences. We use the word to praise a sentence that meshes well with the network of our beliefs and desires. One could even define a human mind as a network of beliefs and desires. But this is one possible description among many possible descriptions. We constantly redescribe "reality" to ourselves, and this includes redescribing ourselves. For one could describe self-and-reality as a self-re-describing knot.

"You can't catch me, I'm the gingerbread man." Wink
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 29 Nov, 2009 12:05 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;106797 wrote:
But to say that we are mistaken is to say that we are mistaken in relation to something, a something I am skeptical about. In a practical sense, the "mirror of nature" paradigm is great, quite useful, one of mankind's best inventions. But perhaps for some purposes it is obsolete.

As I don't recognize any unchanging absolute, mistakeness itself is relative. You can think of it as a dynamic or pragmatic theory of truth. And I agree with Rorty that truth is a property of sentences. We use the word to praise a sentence that meshes well with the network of our beliefs and desires. One could even define a human mind as a network of beliefs and desires. But this is one possible description among many possible descriptions. We constantly redescribe "reality" to ourselves, and this includes redescribing ourselves. For one could describe self-and-reality as a self-re-describing knot.

"You can't catch me, I'm the gingerbread man." Wink


I meant only something very simple. Suppose I believe that I know that La Paz is the capital of Ecuador. I then find out that when I believed I knew La Paz was the capital of Ecuador, I was mistaken. I did not know it at all, since it turns out that Quito is the capital of Ecuador. So, I was mistaken about knowing what I thought I knew. Just as I can be mistaken about anything else I think I know. And, if you mean by "knowledge is provisional" just that what be believe we know we may not (in fact) know. I agree. But that really should not be described as "knowledge is provisional" but that the knowledge one believes one has, may not be knowledge at all, but only thought to be knowledge. If one knows, then one knows. It isn't that one can know, and then that knowledge suddenly vanishes.
 
Reconstructo
 
Reply Sun 29 Nov, 2009 12:28 am
@Mutian,
What you "know" changed. Your present self can re-describe your past self's knowledge as a mistake. But at the time you called it knowledge. In the same way your future self may re-describe your present knowledge as a mistake.

1. How do you know that Quito is the capital of Ecuador. You may have evidence, but never absolute proof. 2. What do you know about Quito? Is it more than just the name of a city to you? This is not to deny its potential use as an opinion. It's that your "knowledge" consists of the relation of 3 abstractions: Quito, Ecuador, capital.

All that being said, the word "knowledge" is fine for everyday use. I just prefer the word "opinion" when it comes to philosophical matters.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 29 Nov, 2009 12:41 am
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;106806 wrote:
What you "know" changed. Your present self can re-describe your past self's knowledge as a mistake. But at the time you called it knowledge. In the same way your future self may re-describe your present knowledge as a mistake.

1. How do you know that Quito is the capital of Ecuador. You may have evidence, but never absolute proof. 2. What do you know about Quito? Is it more than just the name of a city to you? This is not to deny its potential use as an opinion. It's that your "knowledge" consists of the relation of 3 abstractions: Quito, Ecuador, capital.

All that being said, the word "knowledge" is fine for everyday use. I just prefer the word "opinion" when it comes to philosophical matters.


But you seem to think I need "absolute proof" that Quito is the capital because you think that to know it is the capital I have to be certain it is. That knowledge implies certainty. But there is no reason to believe that is true. I know Quito is the capital because I believe it is the capital, my belief is adequately justified, and it is true that it is the capital. I have justified true belief that it is the capital. And, if you ask how I know it is true that it is the capital, I have to point to my overwhelming justification that it is the capital. I won't tire you by citing my justification. You know what it is as well as I do. You will object that my justification is not sufficient for me to know what I claim to know. And if I ask you why you say that, you will claim that I am not certain that it is the capital. And my reply will be, that is true, but I don't have to be certain that it is the capital to know it is the capital. It is up to you to say why knowledge requires certainty.
 
 

 
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