HI Kreist,

I think a fact is a group judgement and truth is individual perception. One could say I suppose that the group judgement as a stated fact is based upon the collective perception/biology of the group, but, it still would not be personal experience for you, therefore, not really truth to you. Fact is of the group, truth is defined by individual experience, meaning biologically defined. I think truth needs to be personal. A rock being gray, round, heavy and hard, are all determined by biology, whether we are speaking of the group determined fact or the truth determined experience of the biology of the individual. These qualities of the rock are only found to be so relative to the biology that experiences them as so. So, Both the determinations of the group as fact and determinations of personal biology as truth, are biological determinations. Your personal belief about the group stated fact could be wrong, but, the truth experience of your own biology will always remain true to the biology that made the determination. In other words, even if your biology was somewhat off, it would be mistaken as to the collective fact, but the mistake would still be true to its own defective biology, its own experience is just that experience, and experience is never wrong. It is what it is, it is personal biological truth, it is your information about object and truth is the said relation between subject and object. I am going back to my room now---lol!!

I might add that a statement of fact from the group carries more crediability then from that of the individual, for both are biologically based determinations, but with the group it is a consensus, the biology of a number of people found this particular evaluation to be true, it has the authority of biological process multiplied.

Indeed, better knowledge towards fuller explanation narrows predictable possibility. Hence, in theory, Determinism.

You can show me a person standing next to a stone, and then later you can show me a person lifting a stone. Where is the possibillity to which 'could' refers? Can I be aware of the possibility in the same way that I cna be aware of the person or the stone: e.g. by touch, sight, etc.? No, the 'possibility' exists only a mental construction. It is not a reality in the same way that the person and rock are.

If it is not a reality that I "could lift a stone which weighs one pound", is it a reality that I "am strong enough to lift a stone which weighs one pound"?

Here's my objection to the subjunctive. Is there a difference of meaning between the following two statements: (1) I lift the stone, (2) I could lift the stone. If so, what is the difference? In terms of the event that occurs, is there a difference? I would say that the difference is purely mentaal: i.e. that 'could' is a lingual device, usefu to express our uncertainty about the future, but which does nor refer to an real situation is the same way that 'is' does.

The difference is that 1 implies 2, but 2 does not imply 1.

BrightNoon - How would you regard the sentence "I can lift the stone" if I am not lifting it at present? Is it merely another way of saying "I could...." or does it refer to an actual physical attribute that I have now?

Can't "could" just be the past tense of "can". "I could lift that stone 10 years ago, but I can't now" ? And it also is a conditional form of "can". "I could lift that stone if it were not so hot". So it is ambiguous.

I would say that whatever applies to "can" also applies to "could" as a past tense (let's call these Category 1), but "could" as a conditional is a different kind of statement (Category 2). BrightNoon's view is that category 2 does not refer to a real situation; I would like to know whether he thinks category 1 does.

I just think that "truth" is something that we believe in and there is no exact evidences of it. Whereas, "fact" is something that has happened and there are still REMAINING evidences.
I am sorry as this may insult. Dinosaur once existed is a fact because there are fossils as the REMAINING evidences. Magic as Gods do not have any evidences, so it is just the truth that many people believe in.

There is a distinction between the truth and the fact. That is why there has been a number of people who has been sentenced to jail not because they were guilty but it was due to the fact and might not have been the truth. Truth does not need any prove to be believed. Truth is true and its only God who can for a fact know.
The fact need to be scientifically proved. There is always the prove to suport and substantiate a fact. Lets note that a fact proven to be right today can be be proven to be wrong another time. No matter how true a matter is without a prove we can not call it a fact, though it is true. For example if some one is shot and killed in my compound and am not able to prove to the court that am innocent, I will be jailed for murder. The truth is that I did not kill the person but the fact is that I kille the peerson because the court was able to prove that I killed the person.

On the other hand, if I really kill a person and am able to prove to the court that I am innocent, I will be set free. The truth is I killed but I have prove to support the fact that I did not kill.

Accepting the truth is dependent on the listerner but fact acceptnce is dependant on ones ability to prove to support the fact. You don't need to move anything to be saying the truth but you need prove to represent the fact.

Opinion and belief cannot be truth because truth cannot be false. Opinion and belief can be false. So can matters of fact. A matter of fact can be logically opposite of what it truly is. So it can be true that an answer is false and it can be false that an answer is true. The dichotomy of true/false is the matter of fact.

Truth, is another matter entirely. Truth cannot be false, thus is a tautology. In other words a tautology is always true. However it cannot be true that 2 plus 2 sums to five. It also cannot be true that 2 plus 2 does not sum to four. Thus logic and math are about truth and belief and opinion are about matters of fact. Intuitive logic is built into the human mind and computers. Truly intuitive is always true, but if one claims that 2 plus 2 does not sum to four, it is a fact that he is mistaken. The basis of the mistake is a failure to apply the test of truth vs. fact. Ignorance is not a proof of truth or a disproof. One can ignore facts and get by with it, but not truth. As the Senator said, “You are entitled to your opinion even if false, but you are not entitled to your own truth.”

Mankind has identified a deity that determines possible and impossible, but not factually true or factually false. Anselm said, “God is that than which nothing higher is possible.” Truth fills that need. Nothing is true without Truth, God; and nothing is false without Truth, God. God rules the possible and the impossible, nature rules matters of fact. Even nature is ruled by Truth and influenced by the impossible. You can create facts on the ground, but you cannot overrule Truth, God. You can assign a different name to any factual reality or belief, but you cannot change what something is or its possibility. You can ignore Truth, but you cannot overrule Truth. Even an atheist believes in a higher power, the power of truth, for he believes that it is true that there is no God. But, if it were true, then Truth would be “…that than which nothing higher is possible.” Even God requires Truth, because Truth is required if there is God and if God is not. So God, as most believe, is a matter of fact (or matters of fact that are not true), but as Truth, God is certain and it is not possible that God is not. Truth is always true and never false. God is, always was, and will always be everywhere and in all time.



Read more: Difference Between Fact and Truth | Difference Between | Fact vs Truth Edit (Moderator): Link removed

TRUTH REGARDS THE INDIVIDUAL. ONE CAN PLACE THEIR HAND IN FIRE AND SAY IT IS NOT HOT TO THEM. THIS IS THEIR TRUTH. ONE CAN PLACE THEIR HAND IN FIRE AND SAY IT IS HOT TO THEM. THIS IS THEIR TRUTH. FIRE IS HOT IS A TRUTH TO THE INDIVIDUAL.

FACTS DISREGARD THE INDIVIDUAL. ANYONE THAT PLACES THEIR HAND IN FIRE WILL BE BURNED. FIRE BURNS IS A FACT TO ALL.

Fact vs. Truth

What is the clear difference between a fact and a truth? Well, if you look into most dictionaries, you will be amazed to find that the two words are actually very close in terms of their definitions. This is because the two terms are very much related. That’s why you really can’t blame people for recognizing both as similar terms.

Fact is basically something that exists, or is present in reality. Hence, these are things that can be seen visually, and these are the things that can actually be verified. Facts are objective matters rather than subjective ones. It is not just something that you believe, but rather these are more or less the things that can be observed empirically, or by the senses. So, facts can be seen and heard, as well as proven by the other senses.

Truth can be described as the true state of a certain matter, may it be a person, a place, a thing or an event. It is what a person has come to believe. If he believes that something is true, then it is true. It also answers the questions of what’s really happening. In the technical sense, facts can answer certain ‘why’ questions, like ‘where’ or ‘when’, and even ‘how’, while truth answers the question ‘why’. The question of ‘how’, and even ‘what’, are said to be answerable by either of the two.

In terms of permanence, a fact happens to be more permanent, and almost always seems to have no changes. It is more constant than truths. For example, when you say that the sun will always rise from the east and set in the west, you are telling a fact, but when you say that you are in Los Angeles, then that is a truth, at least for that exact moment. Several hours from that time you may have gone somewhere else, making your previous statement a fallacy. Thus, a truth is something that is not universal, it is more subjective, and depends on the current situation. That’s why the truth’s existence is said to be more temporary than that of facts.

1. Facts are more objective when compared to the more subjective truths.
2. Facts are more permanent when compared to the more temporary truths.
3. Facts exist in reality, whereas truths are usually the things that one believes to be true, or the things that are true in the current situation.
4. Facts can also answer the ‘where,’ ‘when’ and ‘how’ questions, whereas truths answer the ‘why’ question.

It is obvious that belief, opinion, lie, fact, and truth are related in some way. Most in this forum confuse the difference. In 'fact', most dictionaries ignore a 'definitive' meaning and concentrate on opinions and wrong usage over time and evolved misuse. Even if the terms are reversed in usage now compared with previously, what they refer to is the subject of this forum, not the errors of interpretation and usage.

Truth transcends all facts. Any fact is a manifestation to a thinking physical being that there is a transcendental being that rules over all physical being. The physical being is the fact and the ruler is Truth. I capitalize Truth from now on to show it as an authority over all fact. Truth is prior and higher than fact. Fact is not determinate of Truth, but Truth is determinate of any and all facts. Facts are infinite and specific. Truth is universal and ruling. In that sense Truth is One, while facts are many and each positive fact, is matched with a negative.

The operator of Truth is that something is, not what something is. Fact tells when, where, how, and why. The reflection of 'is' is 'not'. 'Not' is the meaning of non-truth. Not true is as factual as true. Not Truth is impossible. Think; does anything that does not exist, exist somewhere in a physical world? The answer is not. But, in a hierarchy of all being, Truth is higher. Truth rules what is and what is not. Non-existence is not a truthful possibility, but is a ruling of Truth over all. No fact determines Truth, but only manifests that Truth is.

We cannot prove the negative because it means, in Truth, that something said is not. There is no such image of a square circle, or a round square. There is also no such value such that 2 plus 2 equals five. In a digital number system, 2 plus 2 is 4, not 3, 5, or any fraction. Math is about Truth, while figure is about fact. Mathematics is transcendent to all mathematical operators and values. Logic is to reasoning and expression in prose what mathematics is to number and physics. Statics also depends upon mathematics as do statistics.

All measurements carry a tolerance limit for practical usage. Truth has no tolerance limits. Truth is absolute and immutable, forever, everywhere, in all time and for every act intended or executed. For Truth, there is no choice. Each fact can be true or false, exist or not exist. Truth cannot not be. The double negative always produces true. One fact in one place can coexist with another fact in another time and place, but Truth applies to all time and space and even to proof of the negative for those things impossible.

A unicorn can be presumed not to exist, that is a fact. God, who is Truth, cannot be presumed not to be, unless God is reduced to a fact that could be true or false. As Truth, which cannot be false, God cannot be not. And God, who is Truth, can prove the negative as clearly as it can be manifest to a thinking being.

You show disputable reasoning and definitions for truth and fact. Instead, you should go to a fundamental reasoned meaning for each and then apply them universally. Unfortunately for logic, reasoning, math, and publishing, we are free to distort, deceive, and to believe what we wish. That includes, truth, God, self, and other. Yet the fundamental meaning of each is universally acknowledged and affirmed when pinpointed to an indisputable final understanding not distorted by semantics, rhetoric, and debate.

When one defines God as Jesus, or Allah, or the ultimate religion as Buddhism, Hindu, or Judaism, the whole meaning and value system of universal understanding is so distorted as to be useless. Truth cannot be denied or distorted. The understanding and definition can be distorted and so corrupt with opinion and belief as to be false at its base.

Go to an intuitive meaning of 'nothing' and see if it applies. No thing can be felt, but nothing cannot be felt. In the first instance no thing refers to the position of any thing. In the second instance nothing refers to the negation of any thing. No thing can be non-existent without a form or possibility. And non-existent means no thing at all, possible, anywhere, any time, or any condition except that there is none.

The problem is the inability of most thinkers to free their minds of the exceptions of belief, assumption, and distorted traditions. Beyond the thinker, the same problem exists in the receiver of any meaning presented by a thinker. Your discussion exhibits the impossibility to sense in any way a non-existent 'thing'. Thing in that manner is not a positive 'thing', but a negation of the positive thing. I can freely describe a square circle, but cannot draw one or a credible image of a square circle. Yet, I can imagine a transition of a square to a circle, or a circle to a square with all intermediate points within the period of the transition. Thus, what was a square is now a circle, but when it was square it was not round and when it is round, it is not square. They are not the same 'thing' for purposes of the proposition of a square circle. When square, it is not round and when round, it is not square.

Basic facts are perceived through senses. Conceptual facts are pyramids of facts. Truth can only be discerned through the mind. The scrutiny starts from facts, but winds up in abstract. The journey can easily lead to illusions, as well as faith. The faith I am talking about is the blind obedience, such as what dogmatic religions demand. Trust, love, loyalty, are all faiths. Self-evident truths also fall into this category. Even though, we have no first hand knowledge of what is our age or who our parents are, we hold our knowledge about such things as truths.

The trap into illusions can easily be avoided, if logic is not forsaken during the scrutiny. The whole universe is logic. Logic can be applied the same to the conclusions derived by the deeper mind, as by conscious thinking. If a cult tells me that human sacrifice can make me super rich, I know that the cult is full of malarkey. If a super computer solves a complex mathematical equation for me, and I see that a part of the analysis says that two plus two is five, I know that the program is flawed.

As a scientist, I tend to avoid both terms because everything that the human race knows is based on some amount of biased interpretation. Based on my understanding, a fact is a piece of knowledge that has held up against countless observations by countless people over many years. So far the human population is not aware of anything that has disproved that knowledge, and therefore we call it a fact. It is kind of like the "fire is hot" example. The truth, however, is something that we may or may not know, It is what actually is. A fact could be a truth, but it is impossible for us to know if it really is. Because we are human, we are limited in what we can sense and understand. For example, could it be possible that fire is not hot? Maybe it only feels hot to humans? Technically, hotness is relative. Fire could be cold if compared to something that is hotter. What is the definition of hot anyway? Scientists would define something that is hot as something that has faster moving molecules than the molecules that make up our skin. But this is all theory based on human interpretation of the results of many experiments. It is not uncommon that new technologies give rise to new observations that cause us to redefine everything we thought we knew to be fact. Facts aren't often disproven alltogether, but we do often have to tweak them. Facts are what we believe to be true at any given point in time, but facts can change. Truth never changes. Truth is what we continually seek to know and probably never will.

As a scientist, I tend to avoid both terms because everything that the human race knows is based on some amount of biased interpretation. Based on my understanding, a fact is a piece of knowledge that has held up against countless observations by countless people over many years. So far the human population is not aware of anything that has disproved that knowledge, and therefore we call it a fact. It is kind of like the "fire is hot" example. The truth, however, is something that we may or may not know, It is what actually is. A fact could be a truth, but it is impossible for us to know if it really is. Because we are human, we are limited in what we can sense and understand. For example, could it be possible that fire is not hot? Maybe it only feels hot to humans? Technically, hotness is relative. Fire could be cold if compared to something that is hotter. What is the definition of hot anyway? Scientists would define something that is hot as something that has faster moving molecules than the molecules that make up our skin. But this is all theory based on human interpretation of the results of many experiments. It is not uncommon that new technologies give rise to new observations that cause us to redefine everything we thought we knew to be fact. Facts aren't often disproven alltogether, but we do often have to tweak them. Facts are what we believe to be true at any given point in time, but facts can change. Truth never changes. Truth is what we continually seek to know and probably never will.

My personal definition of God based on my interpretation of religious teachings is that God is the truth. God is everything (living or not) that exists. God is omnipresent, and therefore includes each of us, everything we know about, and everything else that we do not know or understand. God exists in us and connects us all. If God didn't exist, we would know and understand everything there is to know and understand. But we are continually learning new things all the time. As long as we continue to make new dicoveries and tweak facts, we do not know the truth and can only partially understand God.