Ego and the Unknown Universe

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Khethil
 
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 07:29 am
I shall rant a bit lightly here, if I may do so. I should like to discuss Epistemology and Ego (insomuch as the perception of one seems to be driven by the other).

If I had a Nickel... for every newly-inspired thinker who, having yet not reached that place where one comprehends and appreciates the enormity of what we don't know), pops up to profess "This is how the Universe is!" or god, or some other such "knowable" notion. I'd be a rich, rich man.

Would that *I* had that magic wand we call "Influence"?

I'd imbide first, before anything else, a deep respect for the vastness of Cause and Effect - that such contingencies (with regards to the universe and thought) go so far, stretch so far and wide that it's likely we won't ever know 1/100th of them all. I'd neatly wrap all this up into a Lesson to the Pupil: Humble yourself young one. Be proud of what you know (see and believe!) but never - ever - lay claim to absolute knowledge of how "the universe operates". Wisdom - that thing we all lay claim to love, begins with the admission of ignorance and the honest, heartfelt belief that for whatever we think is happening, the best we can hope for is that it's only partially wrong.

A deep, abiding respect for the vastness of phenomena - the likes of which we've barely scratched the surface - is conspicuously lacking in much of today's metaphysical dialog. Where is the humility? Where is the respect? Is there, out there somewhere, someone who is OK with admitting their gaps in knowledge? Or perhaps is our ego the only thing steering this boat?

On the other hand, I wanna be rich - I really do!

Thanks
 
jgweed
 
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 08:44 am
@Khethil,
Perhaps the words "seems" and "some" or "most" should appear more often in writing philosophy.
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 08:46 am
@Khethil,
I read this with interest and hoped i was not guilty of your remarks..if i am i will try to be a bit less egotistic..im just hoping its my paranoia..
 
Khethil
 
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 10:15 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
I read this with interest and hoped i was not guilty of your remarks..if i am i will try to be a bit less egotistic..im just hoping its my paranoia..


Oh no, not at all (least not that I see). This is, perhaps, just another axe of mine I grind.

... and for all I know I'm railing at myself. I do think; though, that this is important - that with all the metaphysical study and discourse *can* give, what it often takes away (in terms of keeping our feet on the ground) can cost too much.

Thanks
 
xris
 
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2008 10:30 am
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
Oh no, not at all (least not that I see). This is, perhaps, just another axe of mine I grind.

... and for all I know I'm railing at myself. I do think; though, that this is important - that with all the metaphysical study and discourse *can* give, what it often takes away (in terms of keeping our feet on the ground) can cost too much.

Thanks
im thankful its only my paranoia that i have to worry about..we must i agree keep logic to the fore
 
validity
 
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 02:51 am
@Khethil,
I will certainly be pondering this tonight as I look up towards the stars.

PS Dang, fine post.
 
nameless
 
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 06:02 am
@Khethil,
Khethil;36317 wrote:
...pops up to profess "This is how the Universe is!"...

Is not the following quote you telling us "how the universe is"?
Or is it you telling us how the universe is for you?

Quote:
.. a deep respect for the vastness of Cause and Effect
 
William
 
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 06:02 am
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:


I'd imbide first, before anything else, a deep respect for the vastness of
A deep, abiding respect for the vastness of phenomena - the likes of which we've barely scratched the surface - is conspicuously lacking in much of today's metaphysical dialog. Where is the humility? Where is the respect? Is there, out there somewhere, someone who is OK with admitting their gaps in knowledge? Or perhaps is our ego the only thing steering this boat?

On the other hand, I wanna be rich - I really do!

Thanks


Khethil, I think you are richer than you could possibly know. The ego, IMO, is powering the boat, now how do we calm it down. Nice post.
William
 
William
 
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 06:38 am
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
Is not the following quote you telling us "how the universe is"?
Or is it you telling us how the universe is for you?


Nameless,
this is what we are here for. To share our visions, concepts, perceptions and thoughts in hopes to reach those that are common to the most of us. Never in the history of man has such communication been possible with such spontaneity. It is understandable not all will be receptive, but those numbers will dictate whether or not those visions, concepts, perceptions and thoughts have legitimacy and should be continued with not as much regard to those individual beliefs that would be in the vast minority.

So much of what is thought to be 'truth' is programmed, choreographed by the "minority elite" to serve their purpose and never in the history of man has the majority had a voice as to what they think, only what they have been "conditioned" to think. For instance, abortion. Abortion was a minority elite decision that was force on the majority with no regard to popular opinion. I know, I was there. Any and all opposition that was coming from the majority was rendered mute and not allowed in the public domain. Such as what is common today regarding the useless garbage that is imposed on us through the minority elite controlled multi-media.
We can only hope for a majority consensus that will be beneficial to all human beings and not what is dictated by an egotistical few who think they have all the answers.

We are not as smart as we think we are as Khethil has so indicated. We haven't been here that long at all and to assume anyone has all the answers is egotistical folly. All we can do is hope for reaching collective thought without restricting any one from offering their input. Only then will be begin to realize some measure of truth not threatened by the minority elite and their rendition of it. My humble opinion. Smile
William
 
Khethil
 
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 09:37 am
@nameless,
Hey Nameless,

nameless wrote:
Is not the following quote you telling us "how the universe is"?
Or is it you telling us how the universe is for you?


I think my first answer would be "neither", since cause-and-effect wasn't offered as an explanation of the "way things are". But I think I see where you're coming from and your point's well taken. Besides, I like to try and be a team player so I'll bite the hook...

... cause-and-effect - insomuch as we're able to understand what it is, its nature, its extent and so on - is but one example of what I see as "influences" or "principles" that seem to apply across a broad spectrum. Part of what I wanted to emphasize is that what other "principles" and "causes" there exist out there - framing "all that really is" - is clearly not known, and for this reason (if for no other) I'd think a healthy serving of humility is in order.

This all is just my view, which I'm afraid is compromised by the inescapable condition that I don't know everything (I say, proudly wearing my Captain Obvious Cloak and Tights)

Thanks Smile
 
xris
 
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 09:48 am
@Khethil,
its everso ard to be umble mister..near impossible..
 
nameless
 
Reply Wed 3 Dec, 2008 03:14 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil;36442 wrote:
Hey Nameless,

I think my first answer would be "neither", since cause-and-effect wasn't offered as an explanation of the "way things are". But I think I see where you're coming from and your point's well taken. Besides, I like to try and be a team player so I'll bite the hook...

... cause-and-effect - insomuch as we're able to understand what it is, its nature, its extent and so on - is but one example of what I see as "influences" or "principles" that seem to apply across a broad spectrum. Part of what I wanted to emphasize is that what other "principles" and "causes" there exist out there - framing "all that really is" - is clearly not known, and for this reason (if for no other) I'd think a healthy serving of humility is in order.

This all is just my view, which I'm afraid is compromised by the inescapable condition that I don't know everything (I say, proudly wearing my Captain Obvious Cloak and Tights)

Thanks Smile

I think that, as 'humility' appears to be not a 'choice', from 'this' Perspective (the truly humble would never consider themselves so; one can seek it but never 'find' it), but, realizing the importance and role that 'individual' Perspective plays in everything that one perceives (and also how the ego tends to identify with thoughts, feelings, illusions, etc...), and realizing that all Perspectives are 'valid' for the 'complete picture', might provide that 'scientific humility' to allow all to live and let live; win/win/win rather then the medieval notion and biologically evolutional impetus of 'win (me)/lose (you)', which is becomming more and more obsolete as we learn more of 'reality'.
I think that this is what you might be refering to as 'humility'?

I think that speaking in E-Prime language might provide the semblance of 'intellectual humility' that you might be seeking.
 
Khethil
 
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2008 08:32 am
@nameless,
nameless wrote:
I think that, as 'humility' appears to be not a 'choice', from 'this' Perspective (the truly humble would never consider themselves so; one can seek it but never 'find' it), but...


Agree. I've never believed that an unpresuming, respectful and introspective mindset could be "learned" - I think that its either a part of ones' personality (based on a trillion factors) or it isn't. It's not even something that can be believably feigned. It seems likely that there could be mindsets that might perpetuate this behavior - but that's for another forum.

nameless wrote:
... realizing the importance and role that 'individual' Perspective plays in everything that one perceives (and also how the ego tends to identify with thoughts, feelings, illusions, etc...), and realizing that all Perspectives are 'valid' for the 'complete picture', might provide that 'scientific humility' to allow all to live and let live; win/win/win rather then the medieval notion and biologically evolutional impetus of 'win (me)/lose (you)', which is becomming more and more obsolete as we learn more of 'reality'. I think that this is what you might be refering to as 'humility'? ... I think that speaking in E-Prime language might provide the semblance of 'intellectual humility' that you might be seeking.


Now, this is interesting. I read this document on E-Prime some time ago (you or someone else had linked it) and it struck me a bit wrong. Cast in this light; however, it seemed to permeate quite a bit more.

  • Yes, this could very well be to what I'm referring. In examining this concept (the one I tried to enunciate in the OP), it's quite likely that what I'm perceiving is the use of substandard, A-Type statement.


  • It's also likely that, for those subprime declarations of which I spoke, that the person speaking actually does see that "situation" in the absolutist, "is"-type context that's being described as the medieval subprime.


  • In thinking about this more, I'm starting to believe that perhaps the complexity of which I speak actually is seen by those I perceive; that maybe its only the phrasing - that quality of lazy-annunciation and lack of E-Prime qualifications - that gives me the impression of "arrogance" and "presumption".


  • I hadn't made the connection before. I also find it very interesting that this system of "qualifications of ones' assertions" actually has a "name" and has been studied and/or spelled out. I've always considered this simple perspicuity (or taking the time to properly delineate exactly what ones' trying to get across).

In any case, I'm going to need to ponder this some more to fully place E-Prime into the context of my own view... see where the dust settles.

Very nice, Thanks
 
nameless
 
Reply Thu 4 Dec, 2008 07:54 pm
@Khethil,
^^^ You're welcome. I find 'food for thought' as 'nutritious' and essential as 'food for the body'!
Thank you.
*__-
 
 

 
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