numbers vs. words

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cws910
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 11:08 am
Today we tend to describe the world using numbers. Because of that we can bring beauty down to a set of numbers, life down to a four line equasion, etc. But is this the best way to describe the traits and patterns of the world? Inthe case of beauty, we can define bit with numbers, but we can't CREATE it. But with words, we can truly create beauty; we can describe the elements of life and we also can explore that which numbers cannot. Death, reality, and love. So what do you guys think?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 11:26 am
@cws910,
cws910;116362 wrote:
Today we tend to describe the world using numbers. Because of that we can bring beauty down to a set of numbers, life down to a four line equasion, etc. But is this the best way to describe the traits and patterns of the world? Inthe case of beauty, we can define bit with numbers, but we can't CREATE it. But with words, we can truly create beauty; we can describe the elements of life and we also can explore that which numbers cannot. Death, reality, and love. So what do you guys think?


Mathematicians often describe certain equations, or certain proofs as beautiful and elegant. And if you understand them, they are.
 
cws910
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 11:48 am
@kennethamy,
what I am questioning is not the 'beauty' of mathematics. I am questioning whether or not words can be used as a alternative to mathematics.

---------- Post added 01-02-2010 at 12:52 PM ----------

and then again, kennethamy, I am not questioning the beauty and elegance of the equasions, I am stating that they cannot express beauty.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 12:31 pm
@cws910,
cws910;116375 wrote:
what I am questioning is not the 'beauty' of mathematics. I am questioning whether or not words can be used as a alternative to mathematics.

---------- Post added 01-02-2010 at 12:52 PM ----------

and then again, kennethamy, I am not questioning the beauty and elegance of the equasions, I am stating that they cannot express beauty.


What does that mean? You mean you cannot write, "that painting is beautiful" in numbers. That is true. And you cannot write "that man is tall" in numbers either. So what?
 
cws910
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 12:39 pm
@cws910,
I am saying that we can describe the painting in numbers and then quantify (with numbers) why it is beautiful. But with those same equasions describing why its beautiful, we cannot create beauty. And remeber, this is not an arguement of beauty. It is questioning if words are a viable alternative to numbers in discribing and explaining the universe.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 12:47 pm
@cws910,
cws910;116396 wrote:
I am saying that we can describe the painting in numbers and then quantify (with numbers) why it is beautiful. But with those same equasions describing why its beautiful, we cannot create beauty. And remeber, this is not an arguement of beauty. It is questioning if words are a viable alternative to numbers in discribing and explaining the universe.


Who expects to create beauty by describing beauty? I am beginning to lose you again.
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 12:59 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;116400 wrote:
Who expects to create beauty by describing beauty? I am beginning to lose you again.


Would you not say that certain poetry is beautiful? A lot of it has to do with describing one's beauty.
 
cws910
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 05:00 pm
@cws910,
Kennethammy, I think that you are losing me. I'm not talking about using words vs. numbers to create things. I'm talking about which one is the best to use in describing our universe, or as a substite to mathematics. Rather then exploring or defining our world in numbers, I am asking whether you or anyone else thinks that in our day and age we could use words to explore and prove concepts of a scientific nature. Note that I am asking this in theory and am not proposing that we erradicate mathematics.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 06:32 pm
@cws910,
cws910;116362 wrote:
Today we tend to describe the world using numbers. Because of that we can bring beauty down to a set of numbers, life down to a four line equasion, etc. But is this the best way to describe the traits and patterns of the world? Inthe case of beauty, we can define bit with numbers, but we can't CREATE it. But with words, we can truly create beauty; we can describe the elements of life and we also can explore that which numbers cannot. Death, reality, and love. So what do you guys think?

Nonsense...Beauty is a moral form... It cannot be shown as a thing, so it cannot be sensed, so it cannot be digitized...Words express moral forms and numbers express physical forms...You are wrong about creating beauty...People who deal in physical forms can love math expressions and formulae the way a drunk can love a bottle, but he is no more creating beauty than one who loves forms of expression like poems...Numbers can express a certain beauty, and words can, but they are not beauty...Word, like number is abstraction, only...Beauty is as beauty does, as is always the case... Does it tell truth???
 
cws910
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 07:15 pm
@cws910,
As I said to kennethamy, I am not talking about CREATING beauty, merely describing it. For that matter, I am not debating about beauty, it is merely an example. I am asking whether or not words contain equal power to numbers in describing the universe and its workings, and whether we could or could not use words as a substitute for math in physics and science.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 08:14 pm
@cws910,
You can try to describe beauty, but you will not...You will try to conceive of beauty, but you will not...What was infinite before words and numbers remains infinite...The difference between words and numbers is the difference between meaning and value...Numbers can represent physical reality as a certain value... Words can represent moral reality as a certain meaning...
 
cws910
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 08:58 pm
@cws910,
What I'm saying, is, can words be used to represent that 'certain value' mentioned?
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 09:11 pm
@cws910,
cws910;116532 wrote:
What I'm saying, is, can words be used to represent that 'certain value' mentioned?

Words cannot represent anything but meaning...
 
Amperage
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 09:18 pm
@cws910,
cws910;116532 wrote:
What I'm saying, is, can words be used to represent that 'certain value' mentioned?

can you give an example where you describe something using numbers and then describe that same thing with words just so I can make sure I'm understanding correctly

I will say I think some things can be lost in the translation to numbers and some of the essence of things can be lost when you just boil them down to numbers. For example, I can describe the score to a football game I played in during high school in which we beat an incredibly high ranked school 24-21 I can tell you who scored when and what time was on the clock and all that good stuff but what can never be described was the feeling of that moment. It is something I will never forget and always brings that floating feeling to my heart. heck I'm not sure I could even describe it in words...it was something you had live or be there for to understand the full flavor or essence of that moment
 
cws910
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 09:19 pm
@cws910,
well dont numbers represent 'meaning' too?
 
longknowledge
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 10:14 pm
@cws910,
cws910;116548 wrote:
well dont numbers represent 'meaning' too?

Sure.

The number "2" has at least three meanings:

1. The cardinal number next after one.

2. The abstract number equal to one and one.

:flowers:
 
sometime sun
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 10:19 pm
@cws910,
cws910;116362 wrote:
Today we tend to describe the world using numbers. Because of that we can bring beauty down to a set of numbers, life down to a four line equasion, etc. But is this the best way to describe the traits and patterns of the world? Inthe case of beauty, we can define bit with numbers, but we can't CREATE it. But with words, we can truly create beauty; we can describe the elements of life and we also can explore that which numbers cannot. Death, reality, and love. So what do you guys think?

Numbers are truth in there most reduced form? is this is a form of reductionism but for the wisdom that only numbers alone can show us?
So if we use numbers where there could be description and beauty we are selling ourselves out of an experience that aids in how we appreciate anyhting including the stark beauty that mathematics can bring us.
Some beauties and truths are only truely experienced in there numerical stark form, some truths alone are mathematics. Just as some beauties are beautiful because of the math.
We should be more worried with our misuse of the language than we do about answering with numbers, because some numbers mean more than any many words ever could, they give it icon, look at the infinity sign it means something and is art in of its own accord.
God is absolute Zero to infinitum, look at the 0, it is a circle, it is unbroken it is neverending, look at the infinity sign 8, it is the circle twisted it is a cicle everlasting with a nature with a personality, it could even be said it contradicts itself.
Numbers are beautiful we just need to know what beauty has instore for those who wish to know and see the universe what truth it has by numbers alone can describe that purety that words would have no place in trying to.
The numbers may infact give birth to new ways of expression because numbers may come first, there may be no choice in it, to be able to express something we must first be able to understand it, numbers come before language although they are the first language there was and is ever growing, dont worry the words will be expressed when the numbers are fully realised.
 
Quinn phil
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 10:38 pm
@Fido,
Fido;116541 wrote:
Words cannot represent anything but meaning...

Words represent beauty, for me. Words also represent emotion. Emotion and beauty both have meaning behind them, sure, but they are not meaning in themselves.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sat 2 Jan, 2010 11:46 pm
@cws910,
cws910;116548 wrote:
well dont numbers represent 'meaning' too?

Yes; value is meaning, and meaning is value, but normally value is the form of meaning associated with math, and meaning is the value associated with words...

---------- Post added 01-03-2010 at 12:50 AM ----------

Quinn;116561 wrote:
Words represent beauty, for me. Words also represent emotion. Emotion and beauty both have meaning behind them, sure, but they are not meaning in themselves.

Representation is meaning...This stand for that... But Love, or beauty or truth or justice are all moral forms having no actual being, so unlike matter having meaning and being, moral forms only have meaning...

And it is not the physical world that troubles us...The moral world constantly presents us with problems...Most of cannot approach a definition of any quality of moral form, because each are infinites...
 
cws910
 
Reply Sun 3 Jan, 2010 09:39 am
@cws910,
Okay, lets just use physics for an example. Do any of you think that words could carry sufficiant meaning to be able to explain unolved or unsolveable problems?
 
 

 
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