Is Fatalism Incompatible With Free Will?

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hue-man
 
Reply Mon 12 Apr, 2010 08:27 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;151126 wrote:
No, since robot cannot make decisions, nor choices. So robots, unlike men who can do things because they decide or choose to do them, cannot have free will.


A robot can't make a decision? Can't a robot can be programmed to make decisions? My point is this. If we were programmed by a deity to rob a store at exactly 10:00 PM this Friday, would we still have free will?
 
manored
 
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 11:13 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;151181 wrote:
Why do you say that? Why wasn't it possible, but I simply did not do it? It would not have been possible for me to sell those properties if I had not owned them, but I did own them. Here are two actions I did not take: I did not sell Connecticut avenue, and Vermont avenue, on the one hand, and I did not sell Park Place and Boardwalk, on the other hand. But I could not have sold Connecticut avenue and Vermont avenue because I did not own them. But I could have sold Park Place and Boardwalk, because I did have them. Are you saying that my situation was the same with both sets of properties? In fact, I did neither, but I could have done the one, and I could not have done the other.
I think he is looking at this from a fatalism point of view, that is, if its written you will win, no matter what you do, you will win. I think this depends of the game/situation. In monopoly I think you can win by doing nothing if your enemies keep buying land for high prices and selling low back to the bank to pay their debts of landing on unlucky spots, but off course this involves the intervention of a "greater power" that manipulates the game and others so you always win.

hue-man;151041 wrote:
This issue was brought back to my attention by my Christian cousin. She stated that "what you do doesn't matter anyway because everything is pre-determined by God". This, of course, is fatalism. It reminded me of something that another poster said in a past post of mines. The poster stated that, regardless of whether or not a god programmed humans to behave in the exact way that they do so that all of our actions and futures were pre-destined, we would still have free will. What do you think about that?


hue-man;151190 wrote:
A robot can't make a decision? Can't a robot can be programmed to make decisions? My point is this. If we were programmed by a deity to rob a store at exactly 10:00 PM this Friday, would we still have free will?


I think it depends from the point of view. There doesnt seem to be any sense into saying something has free will if you know exactly what it will do under any circunstance. But if you dont know that, and if it seens the being in question makes choices, then there is sense in saying that.

Or we could draw a line somewhere, and say that anything with decision-making capacity lower than X has no free will, and whatever is above has.

To me, this whole discussion seems to spin around the meaning of "free will"
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Tue 13 Apr, 2010 12:26 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;151190 wrote:
A robot can't make a decision? Can't a robot can be programmed to make decisions? My point is this. If we were programmed by a deity to rob a store at exactly 10:00 PM this Friday, would we still have free will?


We cannot be programmed. But if we were somehow forced to do something at 10 pm we would not do it freely, since we cannot be both compelled and free. Would programming compel us to do something we did not want to do?

---------- Post added 04-13-2010 at 02:30 PM ----------

manored;151385 wrote:


I think it depends from the point of view. There doesnt seem to be any sense into saying something has free will if you know exactly what it will do under any circunstance."


Suppose you knew that I was going to brush my teeth tomorrow morning when I wake up. Does that mean that I would not brush my teeth of my own free will?
 
sarek
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 06:23 am
@hue-man,
I think both is possible. It all depends on your perspective and the way time is treated in that perspective. An analogy is the wave-particle dualism. Neither is the absolute truth.
As long as we are caught inside our material perspective of linear time, determinism is impossible. The laws of physics conspire against it.
Mind you, that is not yet the same as saying there is a free will. Its just an necessary precondition without which free will would not be possible at all.

But what if you were a photon? Relative to the rest of the universe from you perspective you would move forward in time at an infinite rate. The future, any future would be now. All outcomes would be known. Cause would be simultaneous with effect and all the history of the universe compressed into an infinitely short moment.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 06:51 am
@sarek,
sarek;151759 wrote:
I think both is possible. It all depends on your perspective and the way time is treated in that perspective. An analogy is the wave-particle dualism. Neither is the absolute truth.
As long as we are caught inside our material perspective of linear time, determinism is impossible. The laws of physics conspire against it.
Mind you, that is not yet the same as saying there is a free will. Its just an necessary precondition without which free will would not be possible at all.

But what if you were a photon? Relative to the rest of the universe from you perspective you would move forward in time at an infinite rate. The future, any future would be now. All outcomes would be known. Cause would be simultaneous with effect and all the history of the universe compressed into an infinitely short moment.


Wave-particle theory may be as you describe it. But what makes you think that fatalism is like that? Fatalism is incompatible with free will even if waves are not incompatible with particles. The analogy is wrong. Fatalism says that whatever you do, you cannot affect what is going to happen, either to you, or to others. Why is that not incompatible with freedom of the will? Of course, free will and fatalism could be like wave/particle theory. But that does not mean it is like wave/particle theory. That's up to you to show.
 
sarek
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 07:02 am
@hue-man,
Because by definition your perspective will always be limited to either a perspective allowing free will or one disallowing it. You can never have (or measure, in the analogy) both at the same time.

However, neither perspective is less valid than the other. They both exist.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 07:06 am
@sarek,
sarek;151770 wrote:
Because by definition your perspective will always be limited to either a perspective allowing free will or one disallowing it. You can never have (or measure, in the analogy) both at the same time.

However, neither perspective is less valid than the other. They both exist.


But that is not a reason for thinking that just because fatalism and freewill could be like wave/particle theory, that it in fact, is like wave/particle theory. You are simply assuming that they are analogous. But are they? What is your argument that they are?
 
hue-man
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 02:26 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;151408 wrote:
We cannot be programmed. But if we were somehow forced to do something at 10 pm we would not do it freely, since we cannot be both compelled and free. Would programming compel us to do something we did not want to do?


I know that we can't be programmed in a natural world. I'm speaking hypothetically, here. If a god programmed our brains so that me and you will rob a store at 10 PM this Friday, would we still have free will? Being programmed to do things according to another being's will would mean that our will is an illusion and not really our own.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 02:55 pm
@hue-man,
If by program one means input, action, output...then certainly we are all programmed by, whatever...(Nature, God, One) Smile
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 03:04 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;151966 wrote:
I know that we can't be programmed in a natural world. I'm speaking hypothetically, here. If a god programmed our brains so that me and you will rob a store at 10 PM this Friday, would we still have free will? Being programmed to do things according to another being's will would mean that our will is an illusion and not really our own.


If we are programmed, then are we compelled to do what we are programmed to do? I don't know the answer to that question. But the answer to your question depend on the answer to that question.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 03:14 pm
@kennethamy,
Of course trying to robe a bank is different from being successful in robbing one...but we would certainly feel an irresistible desire to do it on our own free wanting will...:bigsmile:
 
manored
 
Reply Wed 14 Apr, 2010 09:08 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;151408 wrote:

Suppose you knew that I was going to brush my teeth tomorrow morning when I wake up. Does that mean that I would not brush my teeth of my own free will?
No, what matters is whenever your decisions are so simple I can always predict then, or not. In that scenario, I would only have been given an insight in your mind, that would not negate your free will. But if my perception was expanded to the point where I could understand how your mind works with perfection, and therefore predict you with perfection, then you would no longer seem to have free will to me.

hue-man;151966 wrote:
I know that we can't be programmed in a natural world. I'm speaking hypothetically, here. If a god programmed our brains so that me and you will rob a store at 10 PM this Friday, would we still have free will? Being programmed to do things according to another being's will would mean that our will is an illusion and not really our own.
It depends from the point of view, you could say he shaped our will as he wanted it to be.
 
hue-man
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 09:42 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;151981 wrote:
If we are programmed, then are we compelled to do what we are programmed to do? I don't know the answer to that question. But the answer to your question depend on the answer to that question.


I would say that in such a universe we would be compelled to do whatever our programmer programmed us to do. In such a universe, the sense of conscious control over our actions would be a necessary illusion.

---------- Post added 04-15-2010 at 11:44 AM ----------

Fil. Albuquerque;151978 wrote:
If by program one means input, action, output...then certainly we are all programmed by, whatever...(Nature, God, One) Smile


I agree, but there's a difference between being programmed by a unconscious regularity (nature) and being programmed by a personal being (a god).
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Thu 15 Apr, 2010 09:52 am
@manored,
manored;152156 wrote:
No, what matters is whenever your decisions are so simple I can always predict then, or not. In that scenario, I would only have been given an insight in your mind, that would not negate your free will. But if my perception was expanded to the point where I could understand how your mind works with perfection, and therefore predict you with perfection, then you would no longer seem to have free will to me.

.


Why would that be, I wonder? Of course, whether I have "free will to you", and whether I have free will, are two different things.
 
awareness
 
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 08:00 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;151015 wrote:
I don't quite understand how you are defining "fatalism". It seems to me that you are just identifying fatalism with determinism. I don't see what is the point of doing that, but if you are asking whether determinism is compatible with free will, I think the answer is yes. Why would you want to erase the distinction between determinism and fatalism, though? Anyway, determinism does not say that future events are inevitable. That means that future events cannot be avoided whatever you do. But haven't you already said that is false? What you are asking is, if determinism is identified as fatalism, is there free will, and the answer is, of course not, since fatalism is incompatible with free will. But that does not mean that determinism is incompatible with free will.


Yes, to be fatalistic is to give up your free will.
 
manored
 
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 01:50 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;152294 wrote:
Why would that be, I wonder? Of course, whether I have "free will to you", and whether I have free will, are two different things.


Indeed, they are. Like I said, we can draw a line to separate what has free will of what does not, thus making the concept be absolute rather than relative. I dont think a clear line exists right now.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sat 17 Apr, 2010 01:54 pm
@manored,
manored;153253 wrote:
Indeed, they are. Like I said, we can draw a line to separate what has free will of what does not, thus making the concept be absolute rather than relative. I dont think a clear line exists right now.


I have free will, trees do not. What is the problem?
 
manored
 
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 12:22 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;153254 wrote:
I have free will, trees do not. What is the problem?
Its easy if you choose something like a tree. Now tell me about robotic replicas of our brains, clones, chimpanzes, etc.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 18 Apr, 2010 12:35 pm
@manored,
manored;153612 wrote:
Its easy if you choose something like a tree. Now tell me about robotic replicas of our brains, clones, chimpanzes, etc.



The fact that there may be some intermediate cases when it is not clear whether a kind of thing has free will or not, does not mean that there are no absolutely clear cases.

I think that you would have to take all these cases you mention one by one, and try to decide whether they were compelled to do what they do or not. For, example, take chimpanzees. They are in general (I think) not compelled in any way to choose to do as they do. So, they they do those things of their own free will. On the other hand, I don't think that robot can make choices, so the notion of free will does not even apply to them. You have to remember that the notion of free will is clearly applied only to people, so that when we try to apply the notion outside of people, we are doing so only by analogy. So it is unclear just what we mean by saying of things other than people that they have free will or not. And that is something that has to be cleared up first.
 
manored
 
Reply Mon 19 Apr, 2010 08:13 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;153618 wrote:
The fact that there may be some intermediate cases when it is not clear whether a kind of thing has free will or not, does not mean that there are no absolutely clear cases.
I didnt say that there are no absolutely clear cases.

kennethamy;153618 wrote:

I think that you would have to take all these cases you mention one by one, and try to decide whether they were compelled to do what they do or not. For, example, take chimpanzees. They are in general (I think) not compelled in any way to choose to do as they do. So, they they do those things of their own free will. On the other hand, I don't think that robot can make choices, so the notion of free will does not even apply to them. You have to remember that the notion of free will is clearly applied only to people, so that when we try to apply the notion outside of people, we are doing so only by analogy. So it is unclear just what we mean by saying of things other than people that they have free will or not. And that is something that has to be cleared up first.
Indeed, this is what I meant.
 
 

 
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