what is cause?

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Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 06:49 am
Alternatives

1. Causes are non-reductive, explanatory ultimates that do not need any explanation in "itself" in the same way that entities are posited in a complete theory of physics. A common "argument" of the sort appeals to inference to the best explanations. The reason is that it best represent our best scientific intuition of some complete theory of physics. The dispositional properties of say an electron is fully, and completely described by the causal capacity of the electron. The best way to understand this is to see it as natural necessity intrinsic to the electron. This of course commit us to property essentialism.


2. Causes are reductive. There are no causal, physical necessity.
In this view, non-nomic facts in the spatial-temporal manifold fully determine all nomic laws. In other words, two possible worlds with the same events, states of affairs as each other will have the same laws. The common problem for this view is the following: Imagine one worlds with 5 different types particles. There will be interaction between these different types of particles. There would be a law of some form the govern their interaction. Imagine two of these type are very far apart. Intuition tells us that there would be a law that govern what would happen if the two particles do interact, but according to the the reductive view, there is no such law in that world. In some sense, the example suck for it supposes laws is the first place, but it does reveal two things:
1a. physical necessities are intuitive.
2b. Account of laws must support subjunctive conditionals.

2b is most important in my opinion for it seems to hint at the most basic essential difference between the reductive, and non-reductive account of laws. In some sense, 2b hint on 1a for it is based on the intuition that if things are different, the laws would still apply. If one denies 1a, then i suppose he would also have to deny 2b.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 06:59 am
@TuringEquivalent,
Causes are the origin of effects... It is in the isolation of causes to a specific effect that scientific knowledge is gained, because there a certain relationship is exposed...
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 09:18 am
@Fido,
Fido;139558 wrote:
Causes are the origin of effects.


The question is if cause is explanatory primary without invoking circular reasoning, and introducing more primitives alone the way. In other word, either a concept is primitive, or it is not. It is not good to say A is in some predicate relation to B, since it does not tell us anything more about A, and in addition, B.
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 09:56 am
@Fido,
Fido;139558 wrote:
Causes are the origin of effects... I.


Of course. And effects are events that have causes as origins. And, around, and around, we go, and where we stop, nobody knows.

Causes are true explanations of events.

---------- Post added 03-14-2010 at 11:59 AM ----------

TuringEquivalent;139552 wrote:
Alternatives

1. Causes are non-reductive, explanatory ultimates that do not need any explanation in "itself" in the same way that entities are posited in a complete theory of physics.


Do not need, or do not have, explanations? The first is true, the second is false.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 10:07 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;139590 wrote:
Causes are true explanations of events.
Assuming that you're still defending the deductive nomological theory of explanation, are you saying that, for example, your visit to a restaurant, on the recommendation of a friend, is the prediction of a logical argument with laws of science as premises?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 10:17 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;139593 wrote:
Assuming that you're still defending the deductive nomological theory of explanation, are you saying that, for example, your visit to a restaurant, on the recommendation of a friend, is the prediction of a logical argument with laws of science as premises?


What does, "prediction of a logical argument" mean? But, ideally, the DN model should apply here too. It has been argued, of course, that explanations of human actions are profoundly different from explanations of ordinary physical events, but that is a different matter. Of course, our knowledge of the laws of nature as they govern human action, leaves a lot to be desired. But suppose I explain someones crossing the street by saying, "He wanted to speak to his friend whom he saw across the street". My explanation is in terms of the person's belief (he saw his friend) and desire (he wanted to speak to his friend). And, on the DN model, the causes of the action (beliefs and desires) can be understood (in principle) by in terms of covering laws together with initial conditions.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 10:24 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;139597 wrote:
What does, "prediction of a logical argument" mean?
The claim of the deductive nomological theory is that explanations have the same logical form as predictions.
kennethamy;139597 wrote:
our knowledge of the laws of nature as they govern human action, leaves a lot to be desired
The deductive nomological theory is a theory of scientific explanations, and science has no pretensions of making statements about laws of nature.
kennethamy;139597 wrote:
on the DN model, the causes of the action (beliefs and desires) can be understood (in principle) by in terms of covering laws together with initial conditions.
It's not a matter of "in principle", either science has a law that functions as a premise in an argument predicting your visit to the restaurant or it hasn't. If it has, what is that law?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 10:33 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;139601 wrote:
The claim of the deductive nomological theory is that explanations have the same logical form as predictions.The deductive nomological theory is a theory of scientific explanations, and science has no pretensions of making statements about laws of nature.It's not a matter of "in principle", either science has a law that functions as a premise in an argument predicting your visit to the restaurant or it hasn't. If it has, what is that law?


There might be such laws that are unknown, of whose formulation is too complex to be produced. This is likely true about weather prediction as well.
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 10:44 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;139602 wrote:
There might be such laws that are unknown, of whose formulation is too complex to be produced.
In that case, such laws are not laws of science.
 
Doubt doubt
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 11:24 am
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;139552 wrote:
Alternatives

1. Causes are non-reductive, explanatory ultimates that do not need any explanation in "itself" in the same way that entities are posited in a complete theory of physics. A common "argument" of the sort appeals to inference to the best explanations. The reason is that it best represent our best scientific intuition of some complete theory of physics. The dispositional properties of say an electron is fully, and completely described by the causal capacity of the electron. The best way to understand this is to see it as natural necessity intrinsic to the electron. This of course commit us to property essentialism.


2. Causes are reductive. There are no causal, physical necessity.
In this view, non-nomic facts in the spatial-temporal manifold fully determine all nomic laws. In other words, two possible worlds with the same events, states of affairs as each other will have the same laws. The common problem for this view is the following: Imagine one worlds with 5 different types particles. There will be interaction between these different types of particles. There would be a law of some form the govern their interaction. Imagine two of these type are very far apart. Intuition tells us that there would be a law that govern what would happen if the two particles do interact, but according to the the reductive view, there is no such law in that world. In some sense, the example suck for it supposes laws is the first place, but it does reveal two things:
1a. physical necessities are intuitive.
2b. Account of laws must support subjunctive conditionals.

2b is most important in my opinion for it seems to hint at the most basic essential difference between the reductive, and non-reductive account of laws. In some sense, 2b hint on 1a for it is based on the intuition that if things are different, the laws would still apply. If one denies 1a, then i suppose he would also have to deny 2b.



A cause is the same thing as an effect for all intents and purposes. The only time this does not fit is if you are arguing for the existence of an original cause or a final effect. It is as of yet unknown whether or not the objective world is infinite or just another irrational number, dancing around what for all intents and porposes seems infinite but that, like pie, could reach its final digit at any moment. Unfortunately by definition a last cause would not give anything an opportunity to be caused to realize its over and any proof of a original cause ,appearing out of thin air long ago, could by definition have had no eye witness.
If something could attain a perfect knowledge of the physical and psychological laws that govern everything, only then could that something trace the casual circularity back to an original cause or forward to a final effect. All discussion of those two possibility's is as of yet moot.

---------- Post added 03-14-2010 at 01:56 PM ----------

ughaibu;139593 wrote:
Assuming that you're still defending the deductive nomological theory of explanation, are you saying that, for example, your visit to a restaurant, on the recommendation of a friend, is the prediction of a logical argument with laws of science as premises?


There is no free will. It is possible to trace everything any human has ever done to before their first memory.

For example i wrote this because it seems like the thing to do in my situation with the state my mind im in. Experience has caused me to want to spread the word. Experience has given me the word/viewpoint i express. Every experience i have had has had a cause. Therefore everything i do including the choices i make has a cause and without the ability to do something without a cause there can be no free will. Some people get the impression that we have free will because we forget/don't acknowledge/or just are not smart enough to realize the corolation between everything we have experienced and everything we cause other things to experience.
The lack of any hope in the near future to expect to attain the ability to correlate every experience we have had with its(if any) effect/choices we make, lets us continue the enjoy life and when applied to situations resulting from other effects with causes unknown to us is very similar to the concept of freewill. We dont feel like robots because we dont have all the information or the ability to correlate it to its outcomes. If we did this would be a very sad existence if that even is what it is. If you dont believe this ask yourself why. Ask yourself why you did/do anything and if you are honest with yourself it will trace back to before you can remember.
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 02:47 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;139590 wrote:
Of course. And effects are events that have causes as origins. And, around, and around, we go, and where we stop, nobody knows.

Causes are true explanations of events.

---------- Post added 03-14-2010 at 11:59 AM ----------



Do not need, or do not have, explanations? The first is true, the second is false.


Well, in this view, cause are non-reductive ultimates which by our scientific enterprise has the status of being a postulate. The situation in the case is more extrema, for the notion of "cause" is part of our daily thinking that any explain of it invokes an assumed realist take. In other words, there is no reductive explanation of A cause B if and only if you accept the non-reductive view in my op post. You are being inconsistent otherwise.
You can try to invole the principle of best explanation, and a nice story, but i doubt it would work for i can always reiterate 'what is "A cause B" mean?'

---------- Post added 03-14-2010 at 03:54 PM ----------

kennethamy;139597 wrote:
What does, "prediction of a logical argument" mean? But, ideally, the DN model should apply here too. It has been argued, of course, that explanations of human actions are profoundly different from explanations of ordinary physical events, but that is a different matter. Of course, our knowledge of the laws of nature as they govern human action, leaves a lot to be desired. But suppose I explain someones crossing the street by saying, "He wanted to speak to his friend whom he saw across the street". My explanation is in terms of the person's belief (he saw his friend) and desire (he wanted to speak to his friend). And, on the DN model, the causes of the action (beliefs and desires) can be understood (in principle) by in terms of covering laws together with initial conditions.


This is in fact the view taken by Dividson.

It is not relevant here. DN is a model for explanation, not cause. The latter has more to do with laws.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 04:12 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;139583 wrote:
The question is if cause is explanatory primary without invoking circular reasoning, and introducing more primitives alone the way. In other word, either a concept is primitive, or it is not. It is not good to say A is in some predicate relation to B, since it does not tell us anything more about A, and in addition, B.

So what??? If we can tie even one event to another we have sooner or later the means to understand all events, but to see only each event in isolaltion, or worse, without cause is to guarantee ignorance.. We know that that not all causes have an effect, and that all effects do not become causes of further events...We know in addition that some events have many causes, none of which can be isolated as THE cause, and yet, it is rational, and I think primarily because of our own animus, our own action as cause to recognize cause and effect as universal whether it is circular reasoning or not...Who is to say that circular reasoning is not sometimes reasonable???
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 05:17 pm
@Fido,
It is best to realize that "A cause B" implies "B events always follows by A events". There is nothing deep here. The real question is if there is more to the constant conjunction. This is hume` s view, and part of the reductive view of cause. Like i said before, the problem with this view is that it is contra to the intuition that things could be govern by the same laws of nature had things been different. Or, the constant conjunction view does not support counterfactual conditions.
 
Fido
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 09:36 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
We would not be able to know anything with certainty if we could not isolate a cause with an effect, and the reason we know so little is that this usually cannot be done, and thus the uncertainty principal which does not deny cause and effect, but only points out how generally impossible it is to know...
 
ughaibu
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 09:51 pm
@Doubt doubt,
Doubt doubt;139614 wrote:
There is no free will. It is possible to trace everything any human has ever done to before their first memory.
So what? Being able to trace past events has no bearing on the nature of the future.
An agent has free will when that agent makes a conscious choice from amongst realisable alternatives. I can type 01 and I can type 10, thus I have established a set of realisable alternatives {01,10}, call this my options set. To make a choice I construct a set with exactly one element and that element is a proper subset of an option set. To choose consciously I must be aware of all elements in the option set, consider at least one consequence of my choice and be aware of the contents of my choice set before I construct it.
{10}, I have now constructed a choice set. That is to say, I have performed an act of conscious choice from amongst realisable alternatives, in short, I have demonstrated free will.
Do you have any reason for me to doubt this?
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Sun 14 Mar, 2010 10:26 pm
@Fido,
Fido;139782 wrote:
We would not be able to know anything with certainty if we could not isolate a cause with an effect, and the reason we know so little is that this usually cannot be done, and thus the uncertainty principal which does not deny cause and effect, but only points out how generally impossible it is to know...



This is unrelated to what i said.
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 04:31 am
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;139791 wrote:
This is unrelated to what i said.

Dya think???
Then let me offer a book that tests my ability to understand...It is: Critique of Scientific Reason, by Kurt Hubner; translated by Paul R. Dixon, Jr.. And Hollis M. Dixon....It covers a lot of this stuff, really presumptions science and scientists make in order to make sense of the world, You know, Law of Nature and such.... But since my life is a train wreck, and I am the cause, I may not be able to do you much good..
 
TuringEquivalent
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:26 am
@Fido,
Fido;139837 wrote:
Dya think???
Then let me offer a book that tests my ability to understand...It is: Critique of Scientific Reason, by Kurt Hubner; translated by Paul R. Dixon, Jr.. And Hollis M. Dixon....It covers a lot of this stuff, really presumptions science and scientists make in order to make sense of the world, You know, Law of Nature and such.... But since my life is a train wreck, and I am the cause, I may not be able to do you much good..


You make no sense at all. What the hell. The topic is about reductive and non-reductive use of the word cause. Do you contribute anything? no. You jump around here, but saying how we need to isolate cause with their effect. It is laughable how this got to do with what i am asking. I don` t care much of your ability to understand, but rather it is your ability to not focus on the topic at hand. Now, you want to give me this?
 
kennethamy
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 11:50 am
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;139729 wrote:
It is best to realize that "A cause B" implies "B events always follows by A events". There is nothing deep here. The real question is if there is more to the constant conjunction. This is hume` s view, and part of the reductive view of cause. Like i said before, the problem with this view is that it is contra to the intuition that things could be govern by the same laws of nature had things been different. Or, the constant conjunction view does not support counterfactual conditions.


Yes, that is Goodman's view, and I think it is right, or, at least, on the right track. The "accidental" view of cause is too counter-intuitive, and is to be understood as an extreme reaction to the necessary connection view that Hume was countering.
 
Fido
 
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 08:32 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent;139945 wrote:
You make no sense at all. What the hell. The topic is about reductive and non-reductive use of the word cause. Do you contribute anything? no. You jump around here, but saying how we need to isolate cause with their effect. It is laughable how this got to do with what i am asking. I don` t care much of your ability to understand, but rather it is your ability to not focus on the topic at hand. Now, you want to give me this?

All I can tell you is that I have read some on the subject, and those terms, reductive and non reductive have not come up...But something has come up, in a sense, more important than any nonsense on this forum, so let me withdraw, and leave it to you...
 
 

 
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