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Sun 21 Jun, 2009 10:07 pm
My question is this. Which came first, reality or actuality? Now I don't want to start off by defining the two terms in an attempt at some sort of intersubjective agreement on what we're dealing with.
So this is how it basically goes down.
On the forum consciousness has become a hot topic. And it seems quite obvious on one hand that consciousness (and by extension, reality) requires actuality in order to exist(no I don't care about the semantics in such a word as 'exist', we all know what is meant). But on the other hand, if one tries to imagine what our environment is like (including one's own body) without the influence of being 'aware' then what is actuality reduced to? Is it even reduced to anything at all. Yes I realize that there are flaws in the 'is's' and 'things' when dealing with abstract concepts but again, you get what I'm saying.
The point I want to get at here is that it seems there is a paradox in assuming that in terms of actuality and reality, one creates or causes the other. Sure they allow for the other, but it is such a linear notion to consider one creating the other. Consciousness doesn't create actuality, heck it doesn't even create reality. There is no first or second. At least, not so simply.
The question I asked as the thread starter is a stupid one. It's based on whimsy thinking. There are better questions to ask, and that's what I want to dedicate this thread to. How would be a better way to look at this problem, unless ofcourse, it's not a problem to you or just not of concern(and rightfully so), but don't mind me.
@Holiday20310401,
Hmmm... in Spanish the words "actual" and "real" are interchangeable terms for the English "real". In English sometimes there is a note of "verification" (and not just an assertion of reality) when the term "actual" is used (i.e. "I have an actual elephant in my living room" is a different statement than "I have a real elephant in my living room").
I think you're going to be stuck defining these terms and deciding whether their differences in use constitute a meaningful metaphysical difference.
@Aedes,
I will do no such thing. I can't.
@Holiday20310401,
Consciousness is always consciousness (of), so in that sense external reality seems logically prior. But the arbitrary separation of the object- of- consciousness and on the other hand the being- conscious- of- the- object may be misleading by simplifying a very complex and inter-dependent process.
@jgweed,
But how can you be conscious of without already being conscious?, (having the basic facility of consciousness) which would make the progression from the inside out.
@Aedes,
Aedes;70972 wrote:Hmmm... in Spanish the words "actual" and "real" are interchangeable terms for the English "real". In English sometimes there is a note of "verification" (and not just an assertion of reality) when the term "actual" is used (i.e. "I have an actual elephant in my living room" is a different statement than "I have a real elephant in my living room").
I think you're going to be stuck defining these terms and deciding whether their differences in use constitute a meaningful metaphysical difference.
If I ask for the
actual value of your home, I think I am asking for how much you can get for your home if you could sell it right now, That need not be the real value of your home. That may be assessed very differently.
@Holiday20310401,
Something that is 'actual' need not be real. And asking whether something is real is not the same as asking if something is actual. Actual is used more like the word 'really' or 'truly': is that actually (really/truly) an elephant? Real is used more like the word 'authentic' or 'existent': is that elephant real (authentic/existent)?
If I said "is that elephant actually real?" I would be asking for verification of whether the elephant was existent, of whether it was really authentic.
@loudthoughts,
loudthoughts;71268 wrote:Something that is 'actual' need not be real. And asking whether something is real is not the same as asking if something is actual. Actual is used more like the word 'really' or 'truly': is that actually (really/truly) an elephant? Real is used more like the word 'authentic' or 'existent': is that elephant real (authentic/existent)?
If I said "is that elephant actually real?" I would be asking for verification of whether the elephant was existent, of whether it was really authentic.
If you asked someone whether an elephant was "actually real" I don't think he would know what you were asking. The only thing I can imagine you might be asking is whether, when he told you that elephants were real, he meant it, or was perhaps joking. But it is hard to imagine that.
To say that X (whatever it is) is real, is usually to
deny that it is imaginary, or hallucinatory. Pink elephants "seen by drunks" are not real. They are hallucinations.
@kennethamy,
This is what I mean. If it's too small let me know. I don't know why it always goes so small.
[ATTACH]72[/ATTACH]
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;71135 wrote:If I ask for the actual value of your home, I think I am asking for how much you can get for your home if you could sell it right now, That need not be the real value of your home. That may be assessed very differently.
The assessed value is the "actual" value of your home for assessment purposes at the time that the assessment is made. Similarly "how much you can get" for your home is the "actual" value of your home right now to another person, which may differ from the "actual" value of your home to you right now. In reality, all such "actual values" are "real" to the person doing the evaluating at the time they are "actually" being "valued." How else to determine what the "real" value is?
:flowers:
@Holiday20310401,
In your diagram it looks like they are using
actual for the independent objective world
and
real for the perceived subjective world.
Not the most common use of the terms but then in that case the actual world comes before the perceived world unless you are some kind of hard core idealist. Try naive realism, representational realism or some other forms of realism.
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