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Are we still "us"....

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Just something that popped into my head tonight.

Are we still "us" if we lose our memories and experiences?

If we were to be afflicted with some illness(I'm not sure if such an affliction exists or not but it's all hypothetical anyway) which caused us to lose our memories and also our experience(in terms of having to re-learn everything from walking to talking to writing to math to everything), do we become someone different?

@Amperage,

were we ever "us"?

@Amperage,

There are a number of such neurological deficiencies by which a person can lose their memory functions from injury onward, or from injury retroactively. It must be kept in mind that there are a number of types of memory, and memory 'lays' and 'routes,' so the autobiographical memory can be even one which is not registered by a direct state of consciousness, but, nevertheless, can be identified as a memory based on information obtained through testing.

Anosognosia in Alzheimer's is one such case, were autobiographical memory causes the patient to not keep up with (in the sense of being aware of through active, up-to-date acknowledged cognition in the state of consciousness) his or her 'selfness.' In such cases as these, and others, the former 'self,' to the person, evidences a lack--and thus we can basically say that the present, up-to-date person is not 'them.'

This is, although, just a philosophical distinction, and is best understood as meaning that that patient is not who they would have been if no brain damage had occurred...and that's all, otherwise, they are still just themselves, in a less 'conscious' state. (meaning the threshold of consciousness has been damaged, and thus reduced, so that it is not as full in content and context as before the damage)

@Amperage,

Amperage;117192 wrote:

Just something that popped into my head tonight.

Are we still "us" if we lose our memories and experiences?

If we were to be afflicted with some illness(I'm not sure if such an affliction exists or not but it's all hypothetical anyway) which caused us to lose our memories and also our experience(in terms of having to re-learn everything from walking to talking to writing to math to everything), do we become someone different?

Amnesiacs are still who they are. I don't know what you mean by "losing our experiences". It will always be true that what happened to us, happened to us.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;117237 wrote:

Amnesiacs are still who they are. I don't know what you mean by "losing our experiences". It will always be true that what happened to us, happened to us.

yeah.
By losing our experiences I just mean that it would seem to me that even I lost my memory that I would still retain my experience in terms of having the same personality type and method of walking, accent, stuff like that.

I guess the reason this popped into my head because I got to thinking down the line of this:

Say I become a devout Christian and I believe in God and I believe that I am going to heaven. Then a get hit with an affliction. I guess I was wondering if I forgot everything, then assuming I got exposed to same things(obviously not the same way though), if I would ALWAYS come to that same conclusion.

@Amperage,

Amperage;117317 wrote:

yeah.
By losing our experiences I just mean that it would seem to me that even I lost my memory that I would still retain my experience in terms of having the same personality type and method of walking, accent, stuff like that.

I guess the reason this popped into my head because I got to thinking down the line of this:

Say I become a devout Christian and I believe in God and I believe that I am going to heaven. Then a get hit with an affliction. I guess I was wondering if I forgot everything, then assuming I got exposed to same things(obviously not the same way though), if I would ALWAYS come to that same conclusion.

No idea. That is an empirical question, not a philosophical question, anyway.
I still don't know what "losing experiences" means.

@Amperage,

Amperage wrote:

Say I become a devout Christian and I believe in God and I believe that I am going to heaven. Then a get hit with an affliction. I guess I was wondering if I forgot everything, then assuming I got exposed to same things(obviously not the same way though), if I would ALWAYS come to that same conclusion.

I see what you're doing here. You're trying to make certain that your belief in God is yours, that there is indeed a "you" that is not mind-dependent, right? That way you feel much more comfortable with your belief in God - it is your belief, your spiritual self's belief, and not just a temporary, fleeting mind-belief, leaving once you die. Am I correct?

Well, nope, it's just a belief. Sorry kid. Once you die, all this is over. And if you somehow become a vegetable (affliction, brain injury), there's no telling whether you will ever become "yourself" again.

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;117335 wrote:

I see what you're doing here. You're trying to make certain that your belief in God is yours, that there is indeed a "you" that is not mind-dependent, right? That way you feel much more comfortable with your belief in God - it is your belief, your spiritual self's belief, and not just a temporary, fleeting mind-belief, leaving once you die. Am I correct?

Well, nope, it's just a belief. Sorry kid. Once you die, all this is over. And if you somehow become a vegetable (affliction, brain injury), there's no telling whether you will ever become "yourself" again.

you're right to a certain extent but it has nothing to do with comfort, I was just curious and didn't have an immediate answer so I figured I'd see what ya'll had to say.
I believe what I believe and I also think that perhaps I might always come to the conclusion. I have no way of knowing I suppose, but if that's the case, then what of my supposed free will...

@Amperage,

Amperage wrote:

I have no way of knowing I suppose, but if that's the case, then what of my supposed free will...

What of your supposed free will?

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;117344 wrote:

What of your supposed free will?

well perhaps it says nothing of it...simply because I would ALWAYS come to the same conclusion, doesn't mean that I wouldn't have freely chosen it.

@Amperage,

Amperage;117346 wrote:

well perhaps it says nothing of it...simply because I would ALWAYS come to the same conclusion, doesn't mean that I wouldn't have freely chosen it.

That's right, even if you did come to the same conclusion, you still could have freely chosen it each and every time.

But you shouldn't be so sure you would come to the same conclusion. Consider how many things you have changed your mind about or have become enlightened about over the years, and how differently you would now respond to questions concerning these topics.

@Amperage,

I'm ever changing. If I learn something new, (Which I do everyday), then I am no longer who I was before I learned it. We are never who we are for more then a second, I believe. Even after typing this sentence, I am a different person. I've thought about this concept more, my fingers got a bit stronger, and I probably got a bit fatter. I don't know, but I'm a different person from when I started typing this.

@Quinn phil,

Quinn;117356 wrote:

I'm ever changing. If I learn something new, (Which I do everyday), then I am no longer who I was before I learned it. We are never who we are for more then a second, I believe. Even after typing this sentence, I am a different person. I've thought about this concept more, my fingers got a bit stronger, and I probably got a bit fatter. I don't know, but I'm a different person from when I started typing this.

If you scratch a pot, is it still the same pot? Yes. Just because something about you changed, does not mean you are no longer yourself. You are still the same person if you learn something. Especially to outsiders, as they may not even know what you have learned.

I think, to become a different person, a great deal of properties would have to change. If I were to melt a pot into 12 bullets, the pot would no longer be a pot - it would be 12 bullets. Likewise, we would need to meld you, change you, so drastically (a great majority of properties would have to change) for you not to be yourself any longer.

@Quinn phil,

How many experiences that we had as a child, can we remember? because we cant recall every event, do those events become irrelevant to who we are. Are we a product of our life or are we above such things?

If life is an experience, do we direct the experience or does life direct us?

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;117353 wrote:

But you shouldn't be so sure you would come to the same conclusion. Consider how many things you have changed your mind about or have become enlightened about over the years, and how differently you would now respond to questions concerning these topics.

that's what makes it so weird for me to think about. I like to think there are certain questions that everyone encounters in their life; one of which is Who or What is God?
Faced with that question I'm can only hope that, while my reasoning would have to be different, the conclusion would be the same

@xris,

xris;117359 wrote:

How many experiences that we had as a child, can we remember? because we cant recall every event, do those events become irrelevant to who we are. Are we a product of our life or are we above such things?

What do you mean "are we above such things"? How could we be above such things? Don't things in our lives affect us, sometimes even long-term?

Quote:

If life is an experience, do we direct the experience or does life direct us?

I suppose both. We make choices, but there are some things we do not or cannot choose. And so, in this sense, you could say life directs us.

---------- Post added 01-05-2010 at 02:58 PM ----------

Amperage;117362 wrote:

that's what makes it so weird for me to think about. I like to think there are certain questions that everyone encounters in their life; one of which is Who or What is God?
Faced with that question I'm can only hope that, while my reasoning would have to be different, the conclusion would be the same

Why would you hope this? Why wouldn't you hope for a different conclusion, perhaps even a more enlightened conclusion? You may even contemplate, through your journey, what "God" even means. And maybe a few years from you will have a different answer, and maybe that answer will be a wiser answer.

Our conceptions of many things change as we get older. My understanding of love, for instance, over the last five years, has changed dramatically. Have you ever had this sort of experience?

@Zetherin,

Is the essence of man his experiences or how he copes with them. Surely we are more than products of our life.

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;117363 wrote:

Why would you hope this? Why wouldn't you hope for a different conclusion, perhaps even a more enlightened conclusion? You may even contemplate, through your journey, what "God" even means. And maybe a few years from you will have a different answer, and maybe that answer will be a wiser answer.

Our conceptions of many things change as we get older. My understanding of love, for instance, over the last five years, has changed dramatically. Have you ever had this sort of experience?

true, what I guess I should have said is that I could only hope for a more enlightened conclusion though I will point out this need not be or mean a different one

@Amperage,

Amperage;117378 wrote:

true, what I guess I should have said is that I could only hope for a more enlightened conclusion though I will point out this need not be or mean a different one

I was literally asking why you would hope that. I'm sorry, it wasn't a rhetorical question. I sincerely want to know why you would hope that your conclusion is the same about God, if that is what you hope.

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;117380 wrote:

I was literally asking why you would hope that. I'm sorry, it wasn't a rhetorical question. I sincerely want to know why you would hope that your conclusion is the same about God, if that is what you hope.

well...I guess I would have to travel down a strange method of thinking: first I could say because I can't accept that this, life, the world, existence, just "happened". But if I tear that away and say 'well what if it did' then I'm left with because God, and my relationship with God, brings me a joy of which I have never known. But if I tear that away and say I could say well well He brings me a peace of mind that no matter what happens to me there is a purpose and someone looking out for me, someone who is with me. But if I try to remove that I can only think that because I can't accept the thought of nothing. The thought of ceasing to exist. For better or worse that thought brings tears to my eyes. I'm not sure I could adequately answer that question with words

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