The Mind; determinism and its reality

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Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 06:29 pm
@prothero,
 
wholethinker
 
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:10 pm
@richrf,
richrf;98370 wrote:

Determinism is a faith born out of beliefs developed with a budding 17th century group of scientists. Nothing more. It flies in the face of everyday experience which makes it more astounding that people hold on to this faith. For what reason? Do they want to be nothing more than billiard balls? I don't know.

Rich


It might be pre-determined that I have this illusion I'm more than a billiard ball.Smile
My concerns about free will came from the following:
In my understanding the free will means that information can be created from nothing. If free will is acting, the information of the universe is fast growing.

There is a limitation for the maximum information stored in a given time-space volume: Information in the Holographic Universe

I haven't seen somebody tried to calculate how much information should the universe contain if random processes and free will exist. Would it be big enough to store all this information?

If I were a designer of this universal movie, I would make it fractal, so that "in the beginning was the word" would be enough.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 07:14 pm
@wholethinker,
wholethinker;98403 wrote:
It might be pre-determined that I have this illusion I'm more than a billiard ball.Smile
My concerns about free will came from the following:
In my understanding the free will means that information can be created from nothing. If free will is acting, the information of the universe is fast growing.

There is a limitation for the maximum information stored in a given time-space volume: Information in the Holographic Universe

I haven't seen somebody tried to calculate how much information should the universe contain if random processes and free will exist. Would it be big enough to store all this information?

If I were a designer of this universal movie, I would make it fractal, so that "in the beginning was the word" would be enough.
 
wholethinker
 
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 09:19 pm
@Shlomo,
Shlomo;98361 wrote:
Isn't philosophy an attempt of enslaved will to liberate itself (In vain, of course)?


Philosophy was invented to prove the suffering will continue on physical level and farther develop on conscious level. Smile

Determinist will deny the enslaved will can be willing to liberate itself; it is pre-determined to keep the game looking not too boring.

Enslaved will should be free in order to be able to want anything, which is contradicting.

Dash ham,

Kirill
 
richrf
 
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 09:23 pm
@wholethinker,
wholethinker;98403 wrote:
My concerns about free will came from the following:
In my understanding the free will means that information can be created from nothing. If free will is acting, the information of the universe is fast growing.


There are, not surprisingly, may ideas about free will. Too many to outline. My notion of free will is somewhat different the one you describe. I view free will as the ability to choose one's actions. In my particular way of seeing things, one can choose a direction one can take, but still being influenced by outside external forces. This would be like a sailor choosing a direction but still having to account for waves, wind, water flow, etc. So one has a choice in direction but not in outcome.

Rich
 
wholethinker
 
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 10:01 pm
@richrf,
richrf;98423 wrote:
I view free will as the ability to choose one's actions.

Rich


The ability to choose, in my opinion, implies the necessity to create new information (not just transform the old one, because in this case we are not choosing but following a rule). If we can create new (independent, out-of-nothing) information, we can brake the chain of events that defines our choice. This was my point.

Regards,

Kirill
 
prothero
 
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2009 10:20 pm
@raidon04,
http://www.philosophyforum.com/philosophy-forums/existentialism/5551-how-we-think-about-probability-post85016.html#post85016

I do not feel like doing the whole thing again about determinsim, probablity and quantum mechanics so for background.
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 06:33 am
@raidon04,
Will is about Needing...

A choice is maid upon needs, impulses, or rational thought about them...what drives you, what compells you towards something is your need of it...And we call this being free..

But more :

For instance, the old story of turning to the left or to the right as a free will choice. How can one be certain that there is a perfect balance
 
wholethinker
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 11:26 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;98404 wrote:
...Is that related to Plank scale and discrete Space/Time concept ?
Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE


It is related to that link Information in Holographic universe (If I understand your question right). Discrete space/time concept is related to my vision of the world as a good quality holographic movie.

Regards,

Kirill
 
richrf
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 05:46 pm
@wholethinker,
wholethinker;98427 wrote:
The ability to choose, in my opinion, implies the necessity to create new information (not just transform the old one, because in this case we are not choosing but following a rule). If we can create new (independent, out-of-nothing) information, we can brake the chain of events that defines our choice. This was my point.


Creating new information is a matter of taking what is existing and rearranging it. For example, the letters of the alphabet. So, everything is there, it is a matter of creating something new and communicating what it is. This is basically what the human being does. The act of creation is the free will part.

Rich
 
wholethinker
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 07:22 pm
@richrf,
richrf;98626 wrote:
Creating new information is a matter of taking what is existing and rearranging it. For example, the letters of the alphabet. So, everything is there, it is a matter of creating something new and communicating what it is. This is basically what the human being does. The act of creation is the free will part.

Rich

I tried to tell that if free will exists, then humans (and not only humans) acting with free will should create new information. I didn't mean that when we create "new" information we do it with the help of free will. But anyway, You are saying that human being creates new information, and that was my concern.

Regards,

Kirill
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2009 07:34 pm
@wholethinker,
A interesting metaphor not an argument, because somehow is self contradictory,for the impossibility of Creating anything truly new would be something like drawing a line neither straight or curve...That would be proof of free will for me...of coarse, no one can do it. In fact there are no perfect straight lines but I think you can get the point...

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE
 
raidon04
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 05:09 am
@raidon04,
It is difficult to not feel enticed to make an opinion on the matter of the tangibility of Determinism. It clearly stimulates emotional repercussions if One attempts to conceive the idea that our past, present and future subjective and objective states have been predetermined. Indeed One can argue the question of subjective free-will which takes place within the Mental realm of the Being with that of the fusion of atoms correlates to Mental states. But One could argue against such a premise by exemplifying laws within Quantum Physics, which could also be argued for in an antecedence focus... infinitum (or to a first cause)
I would urge all those who have made a firm inference on the tangibility (or not) of the concept, to divert and thus remain open to either option. One cannot perceive the first priori and One cannot perceive or conceive the last after-effect of possible causality.
It is arduous to abstain from certainty in conclusion...one may even question whether such notions are arbitrary. For me, such questioning (even if conclusive answers can never be conceived) is advantageous in a Psychological sense as it helps place enlightenment on the angst of Mortality that I seem to uphold, and it helps deviate from certainties which thus coerces me to remain philosophically open to concepts that I believe are tangible even if such is insurmountable to scientific certainties
 
richrf
 
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 08:27 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil. Albuquerque;98663 wrote:
A interesting metaphor not an argument, because somehow is self contradictory,for the impossibility of Creating anything truly new would be something like drawing a line neither straight or curve...That would be proof of free will for me...of coarse, no one can do it. In fact there are no perfect straight lines but I think you can get the point...

Regards>FILIPE DE ALBUQUERQUE


For me, bending a fork creates something new. If you disagree, then try eating food with a bent fork.

Rich
 
 

 
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