Particles and Circles... What gives!

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mindlink
 
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 12:27 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday says: "What I am saying is that Occam's Razor appears to have objective proportions which suggests a multitude of possibilities. I don't however, see how God is one of them without equally willing to accept the flip side to the coin that its all created in the mind anyways."

Everybody I have ever met experiences the world through his or her own, unique, gross and subtle senses, and interprets what is experienced through his or her unique cultural and institutional conditionings and belief systems. From my perspective, everbody can only be very subjective. If you meet somebody who says that they agree with one of your interpretations of reality, does that make the interpretation objective, when you know in your heart that he or she can't possibly have the same interpretation as you? What is "objective" or "objectivity" to you?

Perhaps we should consider the flip side of the coin, that it is all created in the mind!
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 05:20 am
@mindlink,
mindlink wrote:
Xris: There are as many definitions of God as there are religions, and possibly as many definitions of God as there are people. If you can't find a definition of God that works for you, then make one up. That's what I did.

Holiday: The physical sciences tend to define reality as that which can be detected/measured by one or more of the five physical senses: hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting and touching. Some metaphysical persons define reality as the underlying energies which create the "illusions" of physicality. What is your particular understanding of reality? Would you be prepared to adjust your concept of reality to fit your own experiences?
Wot swop one invention for another..convince me...
 
mindlink
 
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 01:24 pm
@xris,
I have no desire to try to convince anybody of anything. In my education and training in life I learned that there are no such things as scientific facts or absolute truths. I learned that my purpose in life is not to find the right answers, but to find the right questions. All I can do is to help people find some questions to ask in their lives and to point to some of the things which I find to work for me in my life. And there is no guarantee that I won't find something tomorrow which works better for me.

I used to be very active in some of the traditional Christian religions, even studying Greek and Hebrew so that I could read early renditions of the Christian Scriptures. I was very firm in my beliefs and faith. But some of my experiences took me to a concept of "God" which is far more omniscient than anything offered by religions, which is far beyond the capabilities of written language to describe, and which has filled me with a sense of gratitude, happiness, peace and fulfillment.

I will feel that my life has been successful if I am able to point one person along a pathway which leads him or her to experience some of the "gifts" which I have experienced.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 03:16 pm
@mindlink,
Don't we need answers to have questions?
 
mindlink
 
Reply Fri 23 Jan, 2009 06:20 pm
@Holiday20310401,
If you already have the answers, you don't need to ask the questions.

Even for mundane things, like what is the speed required for take-off rotation for a particular aircraft, I need to know how to ask the right questions of the right people.
When I learned how to ask the right questions about more serious things, and learned to keep myself open and receptive to new concepts, I got insights and realizations, which were far more profound and exciting to me than just answers. In fact, the insights and realizations I got usually led to many more questions. Each iota of "knowing" which I acquired, revealed to me an infinity of "knowings" which are available, when I am ready for them.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 12:18 am
@mindlink,
mindlink wrote:
If you already have the answers, you don't need to ask the questions.

Even for mundane things, like what is the speed required for take-off rotation for a particular aircraft, I need to know how to ask the right questions of the right people.
When I learned how to ask the right questions about more serious things, and learned to keep myself open and receptive to new concepts, I got insights and realizations, which were far more profound and exciting to me than just answers. In fact, the insights and realizations I got usually led to many more questions. Each iota of "knowing" which I acquired, revealed to me an infinity of "knowings" which are available, when I am ready for them.


So.....:puzzled:; I don't see how this refutes anything I've said. I suppose you could make the case my questions are not relevant, but this is the metaphysics forum.
 
Theaetetus
 
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 12:52 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Don't we need answers to have questions?


Sure, if you are a contestant on Jeopardy. Otherwise, many questions never have answers. So why would you need answers for questions?
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 10:39 am
@Theaetetus,
Questions branch off of answers; technically, you could say any given piece of knowledge is just an answer to a question.
 
GHOST phil
 
Reply Sat 24 Jan, 2009 10:39 pm
@Holiday20310401,
xris wrote:
..or is matter displayed as energy vibrating to form matter.

Yes, it's that simple, energy vibrates, thus it looks solid, and creates the illusion of "matter", everything, at some level is just vibrating energy.

mindlink wrote:
Some metaphysical persons define reality as the underlying energies which create the "illusions" of physicality.

Precicely!

mindlink wrote:

But, from a state of consciousness like Consciousness-Without-An-Object, comes the realization that every energy form in the universe, from the smallest atomic particle to the largest galaxy, interacts with every other energy form in the universe with similar resonant characteristics. A complete explanation for any phenomenon involves energy changes in every element in the universe.
So, to embrace the entire complexity of elements involved in any phenomenon, one would have to say that the phenomenon is an Act of God.

I wouldn't get pulled into that trap, I would start to think that everything is connected at the most fundemental level and any small changes resonate throughout the universe (getting into chaos theory).
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 11:00 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
I understand all this already. I'm talking about the particle as it is. Particles and waves are so very simple, and a wave is really just a circle.


A circle is the shape drawn by the amplitude of a plane wave of constant period in complex space over the period of that wave. Actual particle waves are not, in general, plane waves though they are often approximated as such (for instance in free electron theory, which has nothing to do with political rights of electrons), nor do they have a fixed period. The reason I bring this up is that there seems to be some connection in your mind between the simplicity of circles and quantum mechanics. Does this affect your question?

(As an aside, the notion of 'wave-particle duality' is historical and its only current use as far as I can tell is to broach problems of reconciling intuition with experimental outcomes and theoretical models in popular physics books. The 'duality' arrived originally from a preconception of a wave as infinitely divisible and the experimental observation that particle waves are indivisible: they can be created and destroyed, but not partly destroyed. (See photoelectric effect.) The 'duality' concept was further cemented by the preconception that fundamental massive particles, historically treated as points, could exhibit wave-like behaviour. (See electron diffraction.) The last refuge of the 'wave-particle duality' is tenuous: the collapse of the wavefunction, which is considered to be 'particle-like'. I have no idea why. A collapsed wavefunction does not collapse to a point or billiard ball-like object, nor is probabilistic dynamics a historically known property of any particle.)
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 11:22 am
@Bones-O,
I must be dense..i cant imagine vibrating energy as matter..or is it just energy thats vibrating or is it just a vibration ?..Energu is matter but matter is energy..so how do we distinguish them in reality? is observable energy matter vibrating too much...or is matter in balance an energy out of balance ?:perplexed::perplexed::perplexed:...
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 11:34 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
I must be dense..i cant imagine vibrating energy as matter..or is it just energy thats vibrating or is it just a vibration ?..Energu is matter but matter is energy..so how do we distinguish them in reality? is observable energy matter vibrating too much...or is matter in balance an energy out of balance ?:perplexed::perplexed::perplexed:...


Depends what you mean by matter. I think most people think of substance which has mass (weight, inertia) and charge (can be touched). Thus matter particles are the likes of electrons, protons, neutrons, etc, as opposed to photons.

First of all, particles don't vibrate in space like a guitar string. Well, they do when in molecular chains, but individual fundamental particles are fluctuating in amplitude rather than space, so a point on an particle wave that has zero amplitude has zero particle there. This amplitude fluctuates in both space and time.

Perhaps one thing that would resolve your problem of picturing vibrating waves as matter is the idea of confinement. Take, for instance, an electron orbiting a nucleus in an atom. The electrostatic field of the neutron confines the electron to a fixed volume: the volume of the atom (or thereabouts). Within this volume, the electron 'vibrates' (oscillates in amplitude). Imagine, for simplicity, a wavy circle.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 11:40 am
@Bones-O,
Bones-O! wrote:
Depends what you mean by matter. I think most people think of substance which has mass (weight, inertia) and charge (can be touched). Thus matter particles are the likes of electrons, protons, neutrons, etc, as opposed to photons.

First of all, particles don't vibrate in space like a guitar string. Well, they do when in molecular chains, but individual fundamental particles are fluctuating in amplitude rather than space, so a point on an particle wave that has zero amplitude has zero particle there. This amplitude fluctuates in both space and time.

Perhaps one thing that would resolve your problem of picturing vibrating waves as matter is the idea of confinement. Take, for instance, an electron orbiting a nucleus in an atom. The electrostatic field of the neutron confines the electron to a fixed volume: the volume of the atom (or thereabouts). Within this volume, the electron 'vibrates' (oscillates in amplitude). Imagine, for simplicity, a wavy circle.
I have understood the molecular theory but this is something different ..we are told that matter is just vibrations ..energy..not solid as we imaging..
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 11:55 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
I have understood the molecular theory but this is something different ..we are told that matter is just vibrations ..energy..not solid as we imaging..


Solid? What about liquid? What about gas? What about plasmas? 'Solid' is an electrostatic phenomenon: interactions between atoms and molecules that tend to keep fixed their mutual distances, that distance corresponding to the lowest possible energy of the system. One cannot conceive of a 'solid' fundamental particle: if it is solid, it has an underlying structure and is thus not fundamental.

You first have to think about what you really mean by solid. That if you push it, it moves? This is electrostatics: matter particles behave the same way. That if you weigh it, it has mass? Matter particles have mass too, either through some mechanism (standard model) or on account of its confinement (mass = energy at rest).
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 12:54 pm
@Bones-O,
Bones-O! wrote:
Solid? What about liquid? What about gas? What about plasmas? 'Solid' is an electrostatic phenomenon: interactions between atoms and molecules that tend to keep fixed their mutual distances, that distance corresponding to the lowest possible energy of the system. One cannot conceive of a 'solid' fundamental particle: if it is solid, it has an underlying structure and is thus not fundamental.

You first have to think about what you really mean by solid. That if you push it, it moves? This is electrostatics: matter particles behave the same way. That if you weigh it, it has mass? Matter particles have mass too, either through some mechanism (standard model) or on account of its confinement (mass = energy at rest).
Thank you for your attention..no i can see the difference between liquid and solid..of course..Its not basic physics, its this theory that solid is not as we originally explained it..Molecules made up of atoms then it was even smaller definitions..then we have nothing but vibrations strings..when do we describe vibrations as energy when is it mass..if i sing the right note will i make a fruit sponge??
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 01:15 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Thank you for your attention..no i can see the difference between liquid and solid..of course..Its not basic physics, its this theory that solid is not as we originally explained it..Molecules made up of atoms then it was even smaller definitions..then we have nothing but vibrations strings..when do we describe vibrations as energy when is it mass..if i sing the right note will i make a fruit sponge??


Not a fruit sponge, but will you settle for something smaller? Matter particles are created in pairs (particle and antiparticle) out of the vacuum. You can thinking of it as high energy (rapidly vibrating) photons splitting neutral space into positive and negative parts in a small region. Remember, photons are vibrations in the electric field, and positive and negative charges move in opposite directions in an electric field. Unfortunately cake and anticake excitations, though, are not on the menu.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 01:28 pm
@Bones-O,
Bones-O! wrote:
Not a fruit sponge, but will you settle for something smaller? Matter particles are created in pairs (particle and antiparticle) out of the vacuum. You can thinking of it as high energy (rapidly vibrating) photons splitting neutral space into positive and negative parts in a small region. Remember, photons are vibrations in the electric field, and positive and negative charges move in opposite directions in an electric field. Unfortunately cake and anticake excitations, though, are not on the menu.
Sorry my mind cant cant translate that leap from vibrations to something tangible..are photons mass or are they vibrations or are they vibrating mass..if they are mass what is their parts? are they vibrations?..oooooo much too much...The whole universe is made up of songs ..a song for iron one for silver..one for gold ...that must be diffucult song ..HUMMMMM thats a fart..
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 02:38 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
Sorry my mind cant cant translate that leap from vibrations to something tangible..are photons mass or are they vibrations or are they vibrating mass..if they are mass what is their parts? are they vibrations?..oooooo much too much...The whole universe is made up of songs ..a song for iron one for silver..one for gold ...that must be diffucult song ..HUMMMMM thats a fart..


Photons are massless, chargeless energetic particles. Massive, charged particles are created by photons 'exciting' them out of the vacuum. These massive particles are themselves 'vibration', or waves. However, since they have charge (except for neutrinos) we tend to find them confined to small volumes of space (atoms) of no net charge. This gives atoms a 'billiard ball-like' character. Since the atoms are comprised of waves interacting to form a system, they still have a wavefunction, however this wavefunction has an incredibly short wavelength such that it appears the atom is more continuous and 'solid' (in the way I think you mean) and the amplitude of the wave attenuates to zero rapidly with distance from its centre (~ 0.0000000001 metres). Thus from waves you get the stuff of stuff.
 
xris
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 03:05 pm
@Bones-O,
Bones-O! wrote:
Photons are massless, chargeless energetic particles. Massive, charged particles are created by photons 'exciting' them out of the vacuum. These massive particles are themselves 'vibration', or waves. However, since they have charge (except for neutrinos) we tend to find them confined to small volumes of space (atoms) of no net charge. This gives atoms a 'billiard ball-like' character. Since the atoms are comprised of waves interacting to form a system, they still have a wavefunction, however this wavefunction has an incredibly short wavelength such that it appears the atom is more continuous and 'solid' (in the way I think you mean) and the amplitude of the wave attenuates to zero rapidly with distance from its centre (~ 0.0000000001 metres). Thus from waves you get the stuff of stuff.
So are all photons the same? these photons are they energy of no mass ? When we get right down to it, this energetic vibration, is this the energy that creates mass.is that it? What maintains this vibration,where does it energy come from..you cant have constant energy it must disipate..aahh you cant loose energy on change it..why is that? I could never understand magnets clinging to each other for centuries ,where does that energy come from why does it not suddenly say ive had enough im worn out..It seems to me we cant really understand anything only describe its appearance ..Its so very hard to believe that the energy that was created at the BB is exactly the same amount as we have now..Constants of this magnitude for me are too difficult to comprehend.
 
Bones-O
 
Reply Sun 25 Jan, 2009 05:30 pm
@xris,
Well, we're far off-topic now, but I guess everyone's done with circles so let's keep this thread alive!!!

xris wrote:
So are all photons the same?

Except for wavelength and frequency, yes.

xris wrote:

these photons are they energy of no mass ?

Yes.

xris wrote:

When we get right down to it, this energetic vibration, is this the energy that creates mass.is that it?

You got it! It doesn't create just mass, it gives that mass kinetic energy (movement) and potential energy too, but mostly mass.

xris wrote:

What maintains this vibration,where does it energy come from..you cant have constant energy it must disipate

Not at all. We have dissipative forces all around us (friction, viscosity, air resistance), but what about in space?

xris wrote:

..aahh you cant loose energy on change it..why is that?

Basic law of the Universe: energy is conserved. Such laws are required to maintain, for instance, causality.

xris wrote:

I could never understand magnets clinging to each other for centuries ,where does that energy come from why does it not suddenly say ive had enough im worn out..

Magnetic forces, like electric and gravitational, are conservative. That means that if you don't need to expend any energy to keep things the same. Our muscles don't work like that. When we hold up a weight, muscle cells are constantly contracting, then relaxing. To keep that weight up, we have to contract them again. This requires a constant supply of energy.

xris wrote:

It seems to me we cant really understand anything only describe its appearance ..Its so very hard to believe that the energy that was created at the BB is exactly the same amount as we have now..Constants of this magnitude for me are too difficult to comprehend.

What if that amount were, say, zero? Would that make it easier?
 
 

 
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