Omnipotence, Everything

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de Silentio
 
Reply Wed 9 Apr, 2008 10:43 am
@rottingteeth,
Quote:

Also, if the higher power knew all, then they'd have to know past, present, and future. That would mean that there is no free will, wouldn't it?


That depends on how you want to define 'free will'. Just because God knows what I am going to do tomorrow, does that mean that I do not choose that action that He knows about?
 
the thinker
 
Reply Thu 10 Apr, 2008 07:23 pm
@de Silentio,
Well, the way I see it, he/she/it would have to know what you would think, say, or do before you do so. That may mean that it is predestined, and can anyone choose to change any destiny, even their own?
 
Rasputini
 
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2008 02:03 pm
@rottingteeth,
Why couldn't this all knowing being be aware of all possible choices within freewill? You may have the ability to choose your path, while at the same time the higher being knows what the outcome of all choices are. That is not predestiny, nor does it take away our freewill.
 
the thinker
 
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2008 05:31 pm
@Rasputini,
True enough. But think about it...there are a zillion descisions each person could make, at any given time. And there are a lot of people in the world, and that's not even counted people on other worlds if they do so exist. All I'm saying is that there are a LOT of possible outcomes.
 
Rasputini
 
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2008 06:01 pm
@rottingteeth,
Ya, but that would be part of its all-powerfullness. hahah It's not my personal veiw, but if I were to assume there is something out there for discussion's sake, I think that could hold. That's what would make it all-knowing and all-powerfull. All-good is something I have a major problem with given most religious views on a higher being (God).
 
the thinker
 
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2008 11:32 pm
@Rasputini,
True. After all, they do say that power corrupts. Perhaps absolute power corrupts absolutely. In which case, if there is such a God, we could be in trouble.
 
Rasputini
 
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 12:48 am
@rottingteeth,
Well I figure there's 1) the supposed presence of hell; that's really not good... what kind of all good god would damn his creation to eternal suffering (if you believe it). 2) the presence of sin. God knew that by giving humans freewill we cannot help but sin (based off the general deffinition of sin being bad acts), so in actual fact he created evil himself; not all that good. 3) David Hume's point about natural evils and how one of god's characteristics would have to go (out of all powerful, all-knowing, all-good). 4) if good is relative to evil, than god's "goodness" would also be relative, and if i can think of something better than the current model of god, than in the relative-ism of "good" god wouldn't be at the top.... Though I've stated these very crudely, they're the basic reasons I think that if there is a god, he certainly isn't all-good as most religions perceive him to be.
 
Holiday20310401
 
Reply Sat 7 Jun, 2008 08:26 pm
@rottingteeth,
rottingteeth wrote:
this is what I've been thinking over lately, and it's really starting to bother me because I haven't been able to find a reasonable answer.

I've been thinking a lot about existence and non-existence, everything and nothingness, and a lot about whether or not "God" exists, and what "God" is. I've come to believe that...there is absolutely no one, no thing, that can know everything. I think this because, in order for one to know everything, it would have to be everything. if it were to be everything at once, nothing would exist.

am I right in thinking that? and if that makes sense, does it not prove that nothing can be truly all-knowing?


I like to think of omnipotence as god, but I believe god is the goodness within ourselves so omnipotence is disregarded from being possible.Smile
Yes, there must not be a 'being' that knows everything, that is absolutely omnipotent. Humanity creates God believing that omnipotence exists, but that is becoming primitive. God has not really shown influence in decisions as a physical being. The physical sense of god is transcendent, so why try to conceive it, and why consider God to exist this way? Fundamentally, he should be omnipotent because God stands for benevolence, purpose, morality, and therefore evoking sanity within those whose follow those fundamentals. If people base the majority of their logic upon this, and their actions upon that corresponding logic then God has authority over you. And that's a good thing isn't it.:cool:
As for all knowing, God can be that too. Humanity innovates, and strives to learn, as long as their knowledge is within the other aspects that god symbolizes, like morality, then God is still omnipotent. More or less, there being a supreme being that is all knowing isn't important. We don't want to be congruent to the 'light' or perfection. We want to be similar to it though; which is also a good thing.Smile
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 12 Jun, 2008 01:10 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
If an omnipotent being must be everything, why does this mean there is nothing? I don't see how this follows. If anything, if the omnipotent being is everything, then there is only one thing; if your first true premises are true, monism seems to be the result.



This is a very interesting argument. I only have one question: how can the future be knowledge, something to know, if it has not happened? Continuing with the monism theme, if the omnipotent being is everything, he would know everything at any given moment, and we assume would have memory, thus knowing everything in the past. By virtue of being everything, anything that happens he will know - anything the future contains, he will contain, and will know it when it happens.

I guess the underlying questions here is:
Must an omnipotent being know the future?

I dont think one must; as the future has not happened, there is nothing to know about it. If he is omnipotent, he will know what happens when it happens, and know what has happened.
Though, being omnipotent, perhaps he could know the future, in that he plans the future?


That could hold *if* we regard the future as something that hasn't happened.

If, however, we regard the future as already happening, as just a part of an alternate reality in existence...then what?

If every possible reality is simultaneously occurring in our universe, and every possible reality is simultaneously occurring in every other universe, then every thing is simultaneously occurring in a universe. Now, if something is omniscient and knows EVERYTHING, that would encompass all of this, completely defying our perception of time.

"It" would know it's knowing that it knows, not only in the present, but the past and future. "It" would even know that it knows it knows it knows, not only in the present, but in the past and future. Also, this would occur in all universes.

Not to mention, there are an infinite amount of "things" that come into existence at any given point in time, so every passing moment, it would know even more. But at the same time it wouldn't know any more because there is no perception of time. It wouldn't even be able to relate to "more", "less", "past", "present", "future". It would be every time, every place, every thing.

The point is, we may not even have the capacity to fathom all of this, and even when you believe you are close to something enlightening, you may soon realize you have missed something. We approach everything searching for concrete reasoning, when there really may not even be such a thing. We must choose where we want to stop, and where to start believing. And that's a choice noone should make for you.
 
socrato
 
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 10:33 pm
@Zetherin,
God is 4D, so is omnipotence. It kinda illustrates that in the bible. It doesn't say dimension, but it says God is unlimited.
 
sarek
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 11:40 am
@rottingteeth,
And what exactly is wrong with God being everything?
Or are we so indoctrinated by Christian teachings that we cannot believe we are all part of God.
God is the Alpha and the Omega, both beginning and end of all there is.
The problem in understanding all this is because our own reference frame is fundamentally different. Does it not say that 'no one can see God and live' That must be taken literally.
We are part of the time dominated realm of cause and consequence where free will is a possibility. We can change. There is a difference between past and future and knowing everything is fundamentally impossible.
God is part of (or rather God is) a timeless realm where all is known. That leaves not much room for free will.
It is the apparent contradiction between these two perspectives that can be addressed by metaphysics. I believe that this is possible, that the two perspectives are not by definition mutually exclusive.
 
xris
 
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 12:01 pm
@sarek,
I have read with interest and the most striking thing about the debate is belief...not exactly belief in god but this certainty that we know..for example it is certain the future can not be known...who says?..Science advances can be more pointed than any thoughts we may have...one example is that physically everything is in contact with each other wherever you may be in this universe...thats something to make your philosophical brain start clicking..We could all be omnipresent but not know it... Its said that as someone thinks something revolutionary a hundred others appear to think the same at the same time... we at times appear to have a certain common thought pattern..
 
 

 
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