Stories;PHILOSOPHY OR NOT?

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Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 08:30 pm
The question is can 'stories' or 'fiction' contain ligitimate philosophy?

I would say on the most part, yes. BUT what do you say?:rolleyes:
 
de Silentio
 
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 08:38 pm
@pilgrimshost,
Plato wrote stories, and he contains a lot of philosophy. Whitehead even claims that all philosophy is a footnote to Plato.
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 08:40 pm
@de Silentio,
If 'art' is the expression of our relation to our reality then stories should reflect it, shouldnt it?
 
de Silentio
 
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 08:43 pm
@pilgrimshost,
Why is art 'THE' expression of our relation to our reality?
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 08:50 pm
@de Silentio,
No,sorry,ok An expression of...
 
de Silentio
 
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 08:58 pm
@pilgrimshost,
Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to nit-pick this time. What do you mean that art is 'AN' expression of our relation to our reality?
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 09:14 pm
@de Silentio,
Well, firstly dont worry about it,it is right of you to question my use of words because philosophy as I understand it is the understanding of words to use as a tool for the understanding of our world in a philosophical sence. I was trying to suggest a way in which 'stories' as such may contain a ligitimate context for philosophy as we use 'art' to express our relationship with our reality. Does this answer your question?
 
NoAngst
 
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 09:51 pm
@pilgrimshost,
pilgrimshost wrote:
I was trying to suggest a way in which 'stories' as such may contain a ligitimate context for philosophy as we use 'art' to express our relationship with our reality. Does this answer your question?

There is no way "in which 'stories' as such may contain a ligitimate context for philosophy as we use 'art' to express our relationship with our reality", and this because any expression of "our relationship with our reality" is not philosophy; it is merely articulating a point of view with no ponderable means to prove it or adjudicate between vying or conflicting views. A psychotic or poet does as much without the pretense of it being "philosophy".
 
pilgrimshost
 
Reply Fri 6 Oct, 2006 10:27 pm
@NoAngst,
Sorry, but im just exploring the idea. Ill look into it, or at least think about it. Is it a principal of philosophy that it is strictly by focusing on the person and his surronding?
 
cut2thepoint
 
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 08:36 am
@pilgrimshost,
Why can't art or stories contain any form of philosophy?maybe that should be the question.

Look at the 'MESSY BED' a piece of art work, for those of you who dont know, a so called modern artist got a bed messed it up and classed it as art and made thousands of pounds. I thought it was trash, but so many people look at it and see something I dont maybe its me?

I tend to find this with most modern art, once again it could come down to perception. People find things that to most of us isnt there in the begining. So is this the case with some philosophy?
So what im saying is if I was to write a story or paint a picture and explained the philosophy behind it does it still count as philosophy?

I would say its up to the individual.
 
perplexity
 
Reply Fri 17 Nov, 2006 09:52 am
@NoAngst,
This is of course a nonsense:

NoAngst wrote:
... and this because any expression of "our relationship with our reality" is not philosophy; it is merely articulating a point of view with no ponderable means to prove it or adjudicate between vying or conflicting views.


An ordinary discussion would usually tell me as much as I want to know, if an expression is meaningful or not, and often does.

Proof is for science, not philosophy.

Purpose precedes proof.

-- RH.
 
boagie
 
Reply Thu 11 Jan, 2007 08:33 pm
@cut2thepoint,
Pilgrimhost,

I think you are on to something,perhaps there are stories which have no philosophical content but I would imagine they would be the poorer for it.Certainly every philosophers philosophy,is expressive of their experience in the world.The life lived colours and leads as a current though their works.We know this,and common sense tells us that nothing can be considered in islolation.Writers may differ somewhat is to how much they knowingly or unknowingly reveal of themselves but reveal they do.Take the simple theme of the underdog,does it not tell you something of the author and something of his/her pubic who eats it up---no philosophy there?
 
Baza
 
Reply Sun 9 Dec, 2007 01:09 pm
@pilgrimshost,
 
de Silentio
 
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2007 08:09 am
@Baza,
The whole of existentiallism is based on the fact that you can only do philosophy with stories.

Objective, non personal, systems of truth and meaning have no value when making personal existential decisions, because they cannot relate to the unique situations each person experiences. According to existentialism anyways.

The point of stories is to show one way of interpreting reality and to show one way of giving meaning. A story cannot be applied to humanity as a whole, it can only be used as a tool for each and every person to discover meaning in their existence.

I think anyways.

Since you gave examples of stories, try on Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky. (I say Dostoesky because I am reading "The Brothers Karamosov" right now!)
 
boagie
 
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2007 09:02 am
@de Silentio,
de Silentio wrote:
The whole of existentiallism is based on the fact that you can only do philosophy with stories.

Objective, non personal, systems of truth and meaning have no value when making personal existential decisions, because they cannot relate to the unique situations each person experiences. According to existentialism anyways.

The point of stories is to show one way of interpreting reality and to show one way of giving meaning. A story cannot be applied to humanity as a whole, it can only be used as a tool for each and every person to discover meaning in their existence.

I think anyways.

Since you gave examples of stories, try on Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky. (I say Dostoesky because I am reading "The Brothers Karamosov" right now!)


Hi All,Smile

Smile I am a little confused, stories that amount to self confessions are a bore, only does a message resonate when the voice is of a universal nature. Our experiences of being human are universal, universal experience, as such, is when one speaks, one speaks with the voice of all humanity, which thus embraces that which is constant in human nature, in human suffering and I think only in this way does it become relational, become philosophy. The universal to the particular from the particular to the universal, the alpha and omega is one humanity, which is perhaps one with all life.
 
de Silentio
 
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2007 09:42 am
@boagie,
"I am a little confused, stories that amount to self confessions are a bore, only does a message resonate when the voice is of a universal nature."

Without venturing to far into areas that I am not well versed in, I would say that stories of self confession are a bore for you (underlined for emphasis) because you give little meaning to them. I, on the other hand, give a great deal of meaning to stories of self confession. For example, I find that these type of stories show how others interpret life and their experiences in life. These stories help me reconcile the suffering I experience. (When I say "I", I don't mean myself, because I don't feel that way necessarily)

"Our experiences of being human are universal,"

In a very general sense, yes. However, I will use Sartre's example of the boy who had to make a decisions between going to war to support his cause or staying home with his mother, who would be absolutely alone without him. Sartre would say that no one can make this decision for him, let alone any moral philosophy. This boy must weigh the ramifications of his potential actions against what he knows about his cause and his mother, then decide for himself.

This is where stories come in, this boy can use the stories of others to help him decide, but he must decide himself nonetheless. No one will have his exact situation, feelings, and such, and no one will ever have to make the decisions that he is making. Do others suffer in the way he does, yes. But again, in a very general sense.

It only becomes relational when the person makes it relational.
 
boagie
 
Reply Mon 10 Dec, 2007 11:05 am
@de Silentio,
de Silentio wrote:
"I am a little confused, stories that amount to self confessions are a bore, only does a message resonate when the voice is of a universal nature."

Without venturing to far into areas that I am not well versed in, I would say that stories of self confession are a bore for you (underlined for emphasis) because you give little meaning to them. I, on the other hand, give a great deal of meaning to stories of self confession. For example, I find that these type of stories show how others interpret life and their experiences in life. These stories help me reconcile the suffering I experience. (When I say "I", I don't mean myself, because I don't feel that way necessarily)

"Our experiences of being human are universal,"

In a very general sense, yes. However, I will use Sartre's example of the boy who had to make a decisions between going to war to support his cause or staying home with his mother, who would be absolutely alone without him. Sartre would say that no one can make this decision for him, let alone any moral philosophy. This boy must weigh the ramifications of his potential actions against what he knows about his cause and his mother, then decide for himself.

This is where stories come in, this boy can use the stories of others to help him decide, but he must decide himself nonetheless. No one will have his exact situation, feelings, and such, and no one will ever have to make the decisions that he is making. Do others suffer in the way he does, yes. But again, in a very general sense.

It only becomes relational when the person makes it relational.




de Silentio,Smile


Smile I do not think we are far apart here, though I struggle to understand our difference, in fact. The stories involved must have a bases of universality, it is a bit like others have made the journey before you, while they cannot decide for you, they do point out the landmarks of this new territory you have perhaps stumbled into. Particulars may change over time, but the possiable mental and emotional states of the individual are contained within a certain horizon of human possiabilities. It is within this horizon which itself is humanity, along with the guidence through story of the outer landmarks which informs you you might say, of further possiablities in Kansas.

Smile The actions and constitution of man change little, what does change are the names, qualifications and/or limitations, understanding is done in the context of the present, and the present is always newly experienced, yet it is in fact eturnal/universal. All story is said to be a statement or statements about the relations of subject and object, not really about subject nor object, but about the said relation/s, of said subject and object, this is truth for us, this is meaning for us, and it is universal in its reality, if it is not relational it is not, or is not real. So does this mean that any story will do? What do you think? Sorry, I still don't really understand where we are differring. Perhaps the diffference really is seeing life not as an individual event but in reality a process, and one can be guided through a process. One can not find guidence if life is a one time incident and in and of itself unique. Time for my medication-------lol!! Added thought: personal confession might be said to be universal if it is understood as that in the telling, and in the understanding upon being heard. The ego spoken of must not remain a particular, just as in biology the individual is the carrier of the form of species, so the individual/particular is the carrier of the universal story.
 
 

 
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