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Lies are a survival strategy?

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Deception has apparently been a long standing survival strategy for creatures on this earth. A mottled grey moth deceives others into believing it is tree bark. The anglerfish uses a lure to capture a meal, and some birds feign a broken wing to distract predators from their nests. All creatures seem to strive for a competitive edge over their counterparts. We many times admire these abilities in other creatures.

It seems humans use language much the same way. A lie is a form of deception, frequently used to gain a competitive edge. Those who guide our societies (politicians, religious, and corporate leaders) are known to lie or at least omit the truth-we've come to expect it. I've not seen many reality shows, but those I have seen demonstrate how lies pay off for those who use such techniques. However, it is (universally?) considered a bad thing for humans to do.

My questions are: Is lying a natural survival technique built into humans, or is it something else? Why is lying generally reviled, especially since it (appears) to be a successful technique. Is it truly a successful survival strategy?

@chad3006,

chad3006;149915 wrote:

My questions are: Is lying a natural survival technique built into humans, or is it something else? Why is lying generally reviled, especially since it (appears) to be a successful technique. Is it truly a successful survival strategy?

I would think that one reason lying is reviled is that it undermines trust in what other people say, and that does not conduce to survival. In fact, on the contrary.

By the way, lying is a kind of deception, but not all deception is lying. Soldiers wearing camouflage is deception, but it is not lying. Lying is something done in language.

@chad3006,

If you're not in control of a situation such as someone was abusing you than lying is a successful survival technique and so is cheating and stealing.

@Caroline,

Caroline;149929 wrote:

If you're not in control of a situation such as someone was abusing you than lying is a successful survival technique and so is stealing.

It may be, and then again, it may not be. But people don't like liars because they are untrustworthy. Isn't that true? And if a person becomes known as I liar, he soon will find that lying is no longer successful, since your ability to lie depends on others trusting you. As soon as they don't believe what you say, you can lie until you are blue in the face- it will do you no good.

@kennethamy,

kennethamy;149932 wrote:

It may be, and then again, it may not be. But people don't like liars because they are untrustworthy. Isn't that true? And if a person becomes known as I liar, he soon will find that lying is no longer successful, since your ability to lie depends on others trusting you. As soon as they don't believe what you say, you can lie until you are blue in the fact- it will do you no good.

I think you're confusing between the the two, a person can lie once to gain control of their situtation where someone is wrongly abusing them but can go on to be a honest person, I wouldn't lie to someone and break their trust but I would do anything to get my control back which does not make me an untrustworthy person just dishonest when someone is abusive, do wrong to me and I do wrong to you, be honest with me then there is no need for dishonesty.

@Caroline,

Caroline;149934 wrote:

I think you're confusing between the the two, a person can lie once to gain control of their situtation where someone is wrongly abusing them but can go on to be a honest person, I wouldn't lie to someone and break their trust but I would do anything to get my control back which does not make me an untrustworthy person just dishonest when someone is abusive, do wrong to me and I do wrong to you, be honest with me then there is no need for dishonesty.

I suppose that a person can lie just once, or twice, even. But lying may become a habit. I agree, however, that sometimes, a lie may be necessary. But if arsenic is used sometimes as a remedy (as sometimes it is) it should be used sparingly. In any case, no matter how necessary, lying always leaves a stench in its wake. It always betrays a trust, otherwise, it would not work.

@chad3006,

Yes indeed but if the person is untrustworthy is playing games then you got to play them at their own game to regain control of your situation. I did a similar thing and i can tell you I did not become a habitual lier and discovered honesty gets you a lot further.

@Caroline,

Caroline;149936 wrote:

Yes indeed but if the person is untrustworthy is playing games then you got to play them at their own game to regain control of your situation. I did a similar thing and i can tell you I did not become a habitual lier and discovered honesty gets you a lot further.

Happy to hear it. But if it is bad for someone else to lie, then it is bad for everyone to lie, including you. It cannot be bad for another to lie, and all right for you to lie, since that would be making a special case of yourself.

Immanuel Kant and the supposed right to lie to murderers from benevolence

@chad3006,

I don't think there is any question that lying carries a negative stigma, but does it work?

@chad3006,

chad3006;149954 wrote:

I don't think there is any question that lying carries a negative stigma, but does it work?

Sometimes.....................

@chad3006,

What about someone who lies and achieves enough competitive edge that it doesn't matter what happens to their reputation?

@chad3006,

chad3006;149960 wrote:

What about someone who lies and achieves enough competitive edge that it doesn't matter what happens to their reputation?

I don't understand your question. What about him, how?

@chad3006,

What I'm saying is bad morals don't necessarily carry a real world consequence. Their reputation may be ruined, but they are still the "winner."

@chad3006,

chad3006;149964 wrote:

What I'm saying is bad morals don't necessarily carry a real world consequence. Their reputation may be ruined, but they are still the "winner."

Yes, I suppose that sometimes happens. Why would anyone think it doesn't? (And their reputation may not be ruined either). Your being a moral person does not guarantee success, and being immoral does not guarantee failure. But everyone knows that.

@chad3006,

Well, I'm hopping off this ride.

@chad3006,

chad3006;149979 wrote:

Well, I'm hopping off this ride.

This is not the answer you wanted, I am afraid. What answer would you have liked to have?

@kennethamy,

Both lying and its stigma are necessary for social function in higher level social animals. We must assume for group cohesion that other are not lying, as many of our decisions, expectations, and behaviors are predicated not on our own experience of a particular moment concerning that decision but of another's recounting and or reaction to the same or similar situations. However also being singular entities and self aware we need to lie (within expected social parameters) to maintain our position, ideological and other, in the social structure, or to gain position (within expected socail parameters). Conscious (seeming) deception is common in primate communities, as well as a seeming sense of trust in information presented by others and reliance upon them for defense, offense, and sustenance. Why should it not be the same in us?

@chad3006,

I do not believe in moral absolutes and anyone who says a lie is wrong regardless of its purpose is a fool. If a lie is used to protect you or another person it is completely moral and has nothing to do with betraying trust. If a nazi came to your door while you were hiding Jews and asked whether there were any jews there It would be completely right to lie. It is easy for any reasonably intelligent person to determine which lies are moral and which aren't.

@chad3006,

chad3006;149915 wrote:

Deception has apparently been a long standing survival strategy for creatures on this earth. A mottled grey moth deceives others into believing it is tree bark. The anglerfish uses a lure to capture a meal, and some birds feign a broken wing to distract predators from their nests. All creatures seem to strive for a competitive edge over their counterparts. We many times admire these abilities in other creatures.

It seems humans use language much the same way. A lie is a form of deception, frequently used to gain a competitive edge. Those who guide our societies (politicians, religious, and corporate leaders) are known to lie or at least omit the truth-we've come to expect it. I've not seen many reality shows, but those I have seen demonstrate how lies pay off for those who use such techniques. However, it is (universally?) considered a bad thing for humans to do.

My questions are: Is lying a natural survival technique built into humans, or is it something else? Why is lying generally reviled, especially since it (appears) to be a successful technique. Is it truly a successful survival strategy?

For many leaders, it's very importaint to possess the ability to lie, to cleveryly disguise unappealing matters with pretty lies.

Most in this fora are glaringly naive and not very knowledge about this principle, which is why they will never be great philosophers who can use their philosophy in any practical way other than their mind.

If you are a very honest man, you wouldn't survive long as a leader, be it in buisness, politics ..or whatever.

@chad3006,

chad3006;149915 wrote:

Deception has apparently been a long standing survival strategy for creatures on this earth. A mottled grey moth deceives others into believing it is tree bark. The anglerfish uses a lure to capture a meal, and some birds feign a broken wing to distract predators from their nests. All creatures seem to strive for a competitive edge over their counterparts. We many times admire these abilities in other creatures.

It seems humans use language much the same way. A lie is a form of deception, frequently used to gain a competitive edge. Those who guide our societies (politicians, religious, and corporate leaders) are known to lie or at least omit the truth-we've come to expect it. I've not seen many reality shows, but those I have seen demonstrate how lies pay off for those who use such techniques. However, it is (universally?) considered a bad thing for humans to do.

My questions are: Is lying a natural survival technique built into humans, or is it something else? Why is lying generally reviled, especially since it (appears) to be a successful technique. Is it truly a successful survival strategy?

I think it is as simple as you have already pointed out. People dislike lying because it can give someone an advantage. When someone has the advantage naturally those without will have a dislike for it. I am not promoting lying to be a good thing, but the reality is, everyone does it to some degree weather they want to admit to it or not, they do it. Some lie to their children, some lie to themselves, and others lie without even knowing it.

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