Shame will only become in existence, if it's given a thought and meaning behind it; and give it "Importance."

Thus, Nothingness is Nothing. However, to turn Nothing into Something, when given thoughts and meaning; then it will be the result of "Something."

:sly-dog:

How about Shame as Training Wheels?

S.H.A.M.E. = Someone Hindering Another's Mental Energy. Shame is consequence and induced; it is not innate.

William

Shame is wonderful. Shame is an emotion that reminds us that we're not alone, that other people matter, and that what we do affects them. It reminds us that although we might fall short of moral perfection, we can make always make amends.

It's the difference between a "good person" and a "bad person" when faced with a moral dilemma in which both choices are undesirable. A bad person only makes a choice (if he is despicable he may even enjoy the choice). A good person, on the other hand, makes a choice and feels shame or guilt or remorse. He wishes that things could have been different and seeks to make things better.

A person could be without shame for two reasons. First, they are beneath the moral level to experience it, and second they may have experienced so thoroughly in the past as to have learned to avoid the ugly actions and thoughts that generate shame.

Overall, shame is a negative emotion that sometimes serves a positive purpose. Other times it can breed the evil we would like it to prevent. An unhappy person is not usually a loving creative person. But we are all born little monsters, you might say. It's hard to imagine a youth without shame, as this shame would be the consciousness of failing an ideal. And what is a youth without ideals?

i think there is a dysfunctional shame, that would definitely be of the kind that is society induced...but there is also a healthy shame, not sure where that comes from. healthy shame is what we feel when we have failed our own ethical standards...it is not the same as making a mistake and feeling regret, knowing that we can try to make amends. it is a sorrow over an irreparable damage that has been done to an ideal.

I think that we miss out on the social element of shame when we view it as something that occurs when a person damages their own ideal. Shame isn't a purely internal phenomenon. My shame expresses to those that have been wronged, that I acknowledge my culpability. If it were otherwise, why should shame have an expression.

that thing that is commonly thought to be shame by its expression may not always be. expression happens when no one is around also...but to damage one's own ideal usually involves others, does it not? both others and self.

for instance, i value honesty to others and to my self.

I agree with you.

I like to think of shame like laughter. It can happen when you're alone, but it is nearly always stronger when you're with other people. For this reason, I see bonding as its value. Shame shows to us that a bond is in danger of being severed unless corrective action takes place. Aside from a few exceptions, familial bonds, friendships and communities are worth caring about.

Hello MC and welcome to the forum. Wonderful? Wonder filled? I think I understand why you would say that, but then again those who feel the most of it would not agree. Many times we hear "that's a shame"; an exclamation that represents that it is there, we are just not entirely sure where it comes from.



Would you not agree that is what we consider the "con-science" to be?
That internal, unempirical phenomena that tells us when we are doing unto others that we should not do in that no one is so shameless that would allow them to do that? Yes in that other people do truly matter you are accurate and if we just knew more about who they are honestly, we would never shame them or do unto them that which was done to us to make our shame less.



That would surely identify a "lost" person, wouldn't it. Not knowing which way to turn.



Does a lost person really have a choice to make? Isn't that what "wandering around" means? If we only knew what drove them into the wilderness we could rescue them and they would not be so bewildered, huh?



Yes, that is exactly what the conscience does; it does instill those things, absolutely. Now what is it that keeps us from making things better? Would that be what "self sacrifice" truly means? He seeks it, but does he find it? I think most are too self serving to do that. Egotistical does have it's definitions, doesn't it?



Hello my friend, you wouldn't be "rationalizing" here a bit, would you? Ha!



Agreed! Now let us determine what we did that pounded them down to that level? They certainly didn't do it to themselves. How far can we trace it back? That's what science it trying to do and if we can just find it..................we can simply "cut it out"! Can we trace it back to the garden of Eden? If that is the case then god did it, huh? After all it is he, it is said that shamed those two innocent people. Personally I don't think that was the way it was at all. Of course we would have to begin another thread to understand that, huh? Ha!



I knew this was coming my friend and precisely why I said what I did before. When we venture into the past we must go there to help others not ourselves. When we go for ourselves, we find justification to hide that shame and we keep making shameful mistakes because of that. We can't blame/shame that on god, He knew we would do that to ourselves in all the overwhelming things life would offer until we all ventured into the wilderness that is the past. Then and only then would we help each other find our way out. If just depends on how wild we choose to become before we do. After all we are all in this thing together.



Agreed only if we do listen to the conscience. But as I said few are so self sacrificing. We consider them martyrs and saints. We admire the thought but few are truly willing to go there. We do seem to have a greed for life, when in truth we shouldn't. That greed just screws everything up.



Some say it takes 7 generations to heal the physical and mental wounds we inflict on each other. Now when you think about that, it could be true as I believe we do have the capability to heal ourselves. Whether it will take that many generations is a toss up. However long it takes it will have to be a group effort. The genetic mutants we seem to think is innate in nature somehow (we have yet to prove that) we think we can fix when it will come naturally in life itself if all were truly free. We do impose costs don't we.



Don't you think that would be a martyr or a saint? Could such a loving person be unhappy for others to perceive that about them. I don't think that could ever be perceived. Those who choose to see that do so from the blinders guilt causes that the ego hides behind that ignores the conscience. Recon, I am not denying what you are saying, just trying to help you understand what you did say. That is all I try to do from my perspective. Isn't that what this forum is all about, helping each other so we can better understand all we do and say. I sure hope it is.



You might say? Ha! It was we who turn those little darlings into monsters for not getting the respect and recognition they need and should receive. They were not born that way. Hell, the first words they recognize is NO NO, ha! The first thing we do is slap them on the ass. No wonder, ha! Actually it's truly not so funny as to all the shame we impose on them. They do get blame a lot all of which they were never responsible for.

William

Hi William,

There's a rather nasty condition that afflicts people who can't feel shame. It's called politics. But instead of sullying this discussion with talk of psychopathic inclinations and narcissistic tendencies, I'd rather focus on what happens when we say things like "he should be ashamed" or "what kind or a person can do that and feel no shame". And the reason I want to focus on it is because I don't consider our conscience to be internal at all. Our experience of it can be described as internal, but our conscience is the the "voice" of our friends and our neighbours and our family. As for the experience itself, I consider it to be the way we remember the voice.

If I'm right, and as always that's a big if, than there's still a question of whether we're right to shame people. I'm afraid that I don't have a clear cut answer to that question. Sometimes its right and sometimes its wrong. It depends on the circumstance. I would deplore anyone who tried to convince another person to be ashamed of his accent or his body, but I wouldn't feel in the slightest bit troubled by a person who said "he should be ashamed for lying to his friends and stealing from his family".

Some people take pleasure from shaming others. Often they fail to see their own shortcomings and in doing so we find their pleasure to be both distasteful and hypocritical. I say that its distasteful because there's shaming has an almost bullying like quality to it. But one swallow doesn't make a summer, and a handful of petty-minded "moralists" with domination fantasies doesn't override the fact that most of us are saddened that the transgression occurred in the first place and most of us are saddened that the transgressor has falling short of his own potential. We want others to feel shame for their transgression, not so that we can revel in any negative feelings they may towards themselves, but because we want them to not make the same mistakes in the future. We desire (perhaps rather selfishly) to take pleasure in the best parts of their character, and it feels bad when we are deprived of that pleasure.

Calling a person lost when their stuck in the midst of a moral dilemma seems as good of a description as any other. There may be times when we drive them into the wilderness and sometimes they go there of their own accord. Luckily for the lost there is a map that will lead them out of the wilderness and that map is our memory of our friends and our neighbours and our family's voices.

I think shame is useful and constructive up to the point it forces us to decide not to act immorally again. after we have "repented" it is good to let go of shame.