What about on a national level, where central banks charge interest? My understanding (which is very limited) of modern banking is that central banks, who produce the national currency, do so with interest attached. Thus making it mathematically impossible for the nation (population) to get out of debt.

Is this fair?

Yes, predatory lending is unethical. The same thing could be said of the practices of 'wealth managers' or brokers who convince someone to invest in some fund with ridiculous fees and commissions, when they could put their money into a no-load index fund that will likely outperform the managed fund. The entire finance industry is driven by predatory tactics designed to exploit the ignorance of the consumer.

With lenders essentially preying on the ignorance of the consumer, people need to stay informed. This is why you read the terms of a contract before agreeing to it, and make sure that you can pay off the loan before taking it.

In much of the ancient world interest was considered the way of a parasite. Does anyone think this is true today? Is it wrong to have economies based on this principle?

True also in the Muslim world even now. But, of course, "more honored in the breach than in the observance". If money is a commodity (which it is) why should not the use of money be paid for just as the use of anything else is paid for. You don't think that it is wrong to rent a car, do you. Why would you think it is wrong to rent money?

What about on a national level, where central banks charge interest? My understanding (which is very limited) of modern banking is that central banks, who produce the national currency, do so with interest attached. Thus making it mathematically impossible for the nation (population) to get out of debt.

Is this fair?

I think it's not inherently unethical as a financial instrument but that like almost anything it can be used unethically.

Time + money = more money. If I use money wisely it will make me more money. If I borrow someone else's money I am depriving them of their ability to do so and interest compensates for it.

Time has value that interest represents. I see how interest can be predatory and parasitical but it's not inherently so. It represents real value.

It would depend on the circumstances, but generally I would find it wrong to ask for interest from a friend, but I wouldn't find it wrong to ask for interest from a non friend.

I would view it as kennethamy noted with a non friend. Friends, in my mind, should have priviledges and should be treated with a different respect. Very biased, I know, but that's just how I do things.

There are laws against usury.

In much of the ancient world interest was considered the way of a parasite. Does anyone think this is true today? Is it wrong to have economies based on this principle?

If it's a bank, no. If it's from friends, yes.

Also depending on the amount of interest v period of time.

In much of the ancient world interest was considered the way of a parasite. Does anyone think this is true today? Is it wrong to have economies based on this principle?

The reason why usury was outlawed is because with the economical system they had back then, it did actually cause a negative impact on the economy. Therefore usury was actually a bad thing. These days, capitalism is based on usury so usury is a good thing now.

It makes perfect sense until you try to somehow wedge God's divine authority in there. In that case it seems like, wrong is wrong, no matter the context. So, usury should still be wrong if it ever was.

But capitalism doesn't have to be based on usury, right?

So something like a central bank that expands the money supply (through the monopoly of money creation) with accrued interest in your opinion is ethical? Mathematically it would be impossible for the country to get out of debt. I think this is how fractional reserve banking works. Or I could be wrong, perhaps someone could correct me?

If it's a bank, no. If it's from friends, yes.

Also depending on the amount of interest v period of time.

That would imply that it is unethical to do business with friends. Also, remember, that when you lend money to a friend you are losing any interest you can make with that money, unless you charge him interest.

In much of the ancient world interest was considered the way of a parasite. Does anyone think this is true today? Is it wrong to have economies based on this principle?

Good point, let me specify then.

Depending on how long you know this friend, how good a friend s/he is, and how much money.

I can't se a fix on either value, it must be set by case to case.

Principle/Interest/profit/debt/wealth/poverty/have's/have not's...............rationalization? Hmmm?



Absolutely!!!!!



It's hard to imagine a world with out usury. Call it what you want but that is what lending money is all about. Create a need that is not essential (entice/lure/coerce/entrap) and you have a "racket". Money is not a commodity, it's a tool used to control commodities. Big, big difference! You value your life, then pay me and I do my best to see that you live longer. I'll protect you? Ha, what a joke. The greatest illusion ever imposed on humankind. It's called racketeering and it used to be against the law. Ha, my how times have changed. We just changed the name; now it's call "free enterprise". Ha! Free......................right?



Huh? What's fair got to do with it? It's a way to (earn?) a living! People are accustomed to doing as they are taught or told. Their livelihood depends on it. Can't go against the system, there are penalties involved if you try to do that. It takes money to exist in this world and if you don't have in, I am sure there is someone who will take an "interest" in you to see that you get some, with love and care. Isn't that what interest is, caring about another? Ha! Again, what a joke that has become. What's in it for me is the order of the day, decade, century. Crap!!!!!!! As they say, "That's just the way it is"!

Sorry for the rant Josh, it's just so futile in offering the so many consequences that are involve in a system that has caused so much bloodshed to the point that it has become natural to think there is no other way to survive on this planet but to kill or be killed, survival of the fittest, only the strong survive, dog eat dog competitive world we effort to survive in. It just doesn't have to be that way. Perhaps it was once, but we have slept since then and those who have done the most killing just won't hear of such offerings. There asses are glued to the thrones they sit on and have become accustom to the profit from the chaos. Lucrative way to earn a living from the frailties of those not so bright. Humph!



Hello Robert and welcome to your new home. Please if you don't mind offer just one scenario where it is not inherently unethical? Where does it say that you have to "profit" from helping someone? You have more than you need or you would not have the money you have to spare, now would you? (now you personally) It's about control Robert and it is parasitic no matter how one efforts to rationalize it. This reminds me of a parable of the miser who was drowning and a passerby offered is hand and said "GIVE ME YOU HAND AND I SAVE YOU! The drowning man ignored him and began to sink. An observer who knew the victim offered a little information to this scrooge who was drowning and then the good Samaritan offered his hand and said, "Here, TAKE THIS", and the man took his hand and was rescued.



Those "circumstances" you speak of; would that be those you trust? Is that what you are talking about? You know they say locks are made to keep your friends honest. A thief will use what ever means available to steal from you; friend or foe. Circumstances do vary, do they not? Most who entreat to us usually will not be entirely honest as to their needs. Yes, there are exceptions, but it has been my experience, few. But they all tell a good story. Why? If they are truly "without" it will be evident and if we have more, they need not have to ask, now should they. That's what ethics is. Most don't won't to be beholden to anyone for many times the interest is unjust and they just don't want to pay that price that is imposed for help.

Z, we all have the potential to be friends. No one intentionally means to do harm to another. No one! It is done in defense of self and only then. Call it a survival mechanism and there are those who will hold in check the very survival of others when they offer their help. Sad. They may not "take their life" but they sure as hell can cause a misery if not "repaid" for their "generous offering". Again, what a crock!



Yes my friend, you and a ton of others. Does it have to be that way. No. It's just that we have become accustom to it as we guard so dearly that we consider be ours and will do all to defend it. I have been lied to by far more friends than I have ever been by strangers. Familiarity does lead to a contemptuous state but not always. There are some who are truly grateful for help and will offer what they can to balance the scales; and those who help, a smile is all the payment they need, without holding anything they helped as collateral.

I have lived my life that way and it works. Do I have much to show for it. No, only a peace of mind and there is no price to be put on that. The mind at peace is the most valuable asset any individual can own. And it is absolutely FREE. Without that peace, life is indeed a struggle to keep all the balls in the air in the less than sincere offerings that othere put "out there". In so many cases there are agendas attached. Again exceptions noted and understood, but few.

When I was, what many might consider, dying, there were 7 individuals that came to my rescue: 4 friends and three relatives (a daughter, a brother and an estranged cousin) I had only seen once in the past some 40 years. It is that cousin I would to bring to your attention. Her name was Judy and she too was dying and she knew it but no one else did. I guess the doctors that treated her did and may have told her, but if that was the case, she never spoke of it. It was obvious she was not in he best of health. We had only seen each other one time in 40 years.

I was living at my brother's and out of the clear blue one day she called. My brother, due to the extraneous conditions of my living there, related my circumstances and she without a blink offered that I could stay with her. She lived in government assisted housing for the disabled and food assistance with a small stipend. She had a one bedroom apartment, but said we could make do; and we did.

We were both in bad health but we managed. She helped me get into the system in the time I lived with her, helping me financially with the very little money she had stuffed away without even so much a mentioning my indebtedness to her.Not once. I was there for a period of about 6 weeks and as a result was able to do what was necessary to get on the road to recovery; both medically and environmentally (home, stipend and food assistance). Let's just say, she aided me in getting the ball rolling. As I said, I was with her for a period of 6 weeks and because of the stringent rules that are imposed on anyone who has government assistance, she was afraid she may lose her status if it were known I was living there and I moved back in with my brother and was there for a period for 6 months until I had been approved by the government. For many it takes a lot longer. All that time I was being treated by the VA because of my participation in the Viet Nam conflict.

When I got word that I had been approved, it was two weeks later and I received my first check and was then able to apply for a home for the disabled, which are few and far between. I got lucky, I guess you could say and the first place I contacted had just had an opening. I bought the essentials I needed and moved in a week later.

I owed Judy about $300.00 she had given me and I paid her in three payments. The last of which I paid she was in the hospital. That was the day before the VA operated on me to install a pacemaker/defibrillator in my chest. It was April 13th, (Friday no less) of this year and the day before that surgery was done, Judy died.

That was a little over 8 months ago. Even now when I think of Judy and all the curves life has thrown at her, she never was seen without a smile on her face. That is what I remember about her when we were both children. That never changed. You would be amazed a what those curves entailed, but that smile was there until the day she died, the day before I began to live again with a new heart beat. Talk about being "reborn"......................!

I am still indebted to those others as far as I am concerned but not they. If it be, I will absolve those debts before I die. And perhaps I have in some ways have already as I am now efforting to do on this forum by sharing my life with you and all that I have come to know about what life is all about. I was posting here all that time. Everyday I learn a little bit more as it is coming to me somehow. Does God exist? You bet and his names are Mike, Kasie, John, Lance, Glen, Bob and bless her heart, Judy. They all aided me in repairing my 'broken heart'. It is beating stronger now than it has in years. Am I grateful........................more than you could possibly know. Last but not least it is those of you and your tax dollars who helped also that fund the Veterans Administration. The facility in Dallas is one of the best as far as I am concerned.

I was going go offer my comments to other posts being made here, but have chosen not to. It would be nice to know all are observant of the miracles that occur in their lives. Are they explainable? No they are not. Is there something else involved here? Yes, there is.

We talk about principles, ethics, philosophy and such but do we really gain from those discussions? Will the "I" in us allow that? Will we ever see "eye to eye" on what life is all about? Yes, we will.................someday. Let's all hope we come to understand the Earth is not for sale. There is enough to go around for all who call it home. We are here for the duration no matter how long that might be and there is a peace that can be derived from that that is hard to describe.

Life should be free for all. We perform better when we are so free. It is instinctive in us to participate and cooperate with each other without costs involve. Many will argue differently who feel otherwise. Do I become offended that others feel the way they do? No! Perhaps I did once but no more. I understand it.

I have met so many people in my life, from all walks in life and not one was I afraid of. Not one. Was it because of me and what I was putting out there? Perhaps, but I don't dwell on that. I am not a privileged sort who has something others do not. They have it too. All do, at least I hope they do. I don't consider otherwise for that would make me bitter and that is no fun place to be.

Well you know me, I do have a tendency to ramble. Sorry! It just happens sometimes. I hope a little more of my life will help you understand a little more about yours. We are in this together you know. We just can't shake that. That's just the way it is and we all need to help one another, feed one another rather than feeding off one another.

There is a reason for it all. What that is will come to us one moment at a time for that is all there is. That moment and how fleeting that moment is. So enjoy it as best you can and help others do the same. The rewards are too numerous to mention and are out of our control. That is the wonder of it all. Wow!

Now pass the plate before you leave the vestibule! Ha, just kidding. :a-ok:

William

Principle/Interest/profit/debt/wealth/poverty/have's/have not's...............rationalization? Hmmm?



Absolutely!!!!!



It's hard to imagine a world with out usury. Call it what you want but that is what lending money is all about.
William

If all lending money with interest is usury, then lending money without interest must be a form of charity, since the lender would then be giving the money he could have gained with the money he lent, to the borrower. Nothing is free, including money. Of course, it interest were forbidden, then credit would immediately dry up, and all commerce would be destroyed. Would we then be better off?[/QUOTE.

I am the least among the social scientist so I am sure that I can be wrong. but I do agree with what you say. I am sad to say that I also gain a lot of my wealth from interest. It is not my prefferd choice of doing things but I also have to live in a corrupt world and I have to live.

I am sure that there is a better way of economics but I can not change the world by myself. Greed rules and I have to live with it. I can only share my point of views. untill enough people have a personal paradigm shift about economics we will be stuck in the rut that we are in.

If you realy care you would have to study ethics and have love for everyone. If you are not able to have a love for everyone than there may be no way that you would be able to understand what I am talking about.

Do not get me wrong as I hate some of the things that people do but I do not hate the people. example I hate what my kids do at times but I can forgive them and understand that there was a reason why they did what they did even though I disagree with the reason.

kennethamy;139401 wrote:

If all lending money with interest is usury, then lending money without interest must be a form of charity, since the lender would then be giving the money he could have gained with the money he lent, to the borrower. Nothing is free, including money. Of course, it interest were forbidden, then credit would immediately dry up, and all commerce would be destroyed. Would we then be better off?[/QUOTE.

I am the least among the social scientist so I am sure that I can be wrong. but I do agree with what you say. I am sad to say that I also gain a lot of my wealth from interest. It is not my prefferd choice of doing things but I also have to live in a corrupt world and I have to live.

I am sure that there is a better way of economics [/QUOTE]

You think that a world without commerce would be a better world than the one with commerce? Why? What is wrong with interest except that it happens to offend you? Consider this quote by Adam Smith:

It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.
Adam Smith