captivity - a cruel creation by mankind

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Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 07:51 am
@steffen phil,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
But a pig confined to a pin so small it cannot even lay down, with a floor covered ankle high in feces, and so on as is typical of industrial farming, is an animal who's conscious experience of life is being disregarded by the keeper. The keeper's practice is therefore morally wrong.

But isn't the ultimate disregard for the animal's conscious experience the killing of the animal?

I'm just trying to understand why a person would think that killing an animal isn't as, if not more, morally wrong, as making the animal live in horrible conditions.
 
steffen phil
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 12:25 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:

Quote:

But isn't the ultimate disregard for the animal's conscious experience the killing of the animal?

I'm just trying to understand why a person would think that killing an animal isn't as, if not more, morally wrong, as making the animal live in horrible conditions.


Killing to obtain food is a main structural part of natures process on this planet since billion of years /since the beginning of life here and certainly the ingenious creator of the natural rules has taken care that there is no lasting agony connected with that (with tools like shock etc).

All animals in the free nature without exception will experience the danger to fall a prey during their life. To be killed means to die, and this is something every living thing will experience anyway.

So, every living thing has to die, but also all creatures have got the natural right to live the interesting, exiting and amazing life in the way they have created themselves. (Their physically body is designed to fit like a stone into a puzzle and that allows the amazing and exiting free life-experience)

Contrary to that holding a living thing in captivity under cruel circumstances for its entire life is not allowed under natures laws, and there are tools installed in the natures rules to prevent such a development in the free nature (see above explanations).

Sorry to say it directly, but I am 100% convinced that those of you arduously trying to find excuses for your dirty deeds (buying and consuming products of creatures that spend their entire live in cruel captivity), do only fight to avoid admitting what a horror you are creating (with full responsibility). You are not willing to accept any renunciations to live in the right (respectful) way regarding the weaker creatures, but instead your only goal is to live out complete and unbridled arrogance to satisfy your egoistical needs.

You are stronger and much more powerful than these poor animals (due to our leaving of the frame of free nature). But absolutely guaranteed there is not a cold computer in the background of the physical existence but something with extremely deep sense for justice and beauty. Ignoring the weaker living things and the natural rules will be connected with paying a very high price.

___________________________
www.basicrule.info
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 12:45 pm
@steffen phil,
steffen;124914 wrote:
Zetherin wrote:



Killing to obtain food is a main structural part of natures process on this planet since billion of years /since the beginning of life here and certainly the ingenious creator of the natural rules has taken care that there is no lasting agony connected with that (with tools like shock etc).





Thinking ahead, planning, plotting etc... is probably the one thing that has made humanity so successful. It would be against our nature not to plan ahead. It is a structural part of our natural process. Hunter gatherers do it (seasonal rounds), slash and burn agriculturalists do it, pastoralists do it, agriculturalists do it. Functionally ranching is no different than farming and neither is any different than food storage. Humans have just found a more efficient way to pre-store food. Live food cannot rot. Non-humans store food for the future. Alligators stuff it away in cutbanks, Squirrels store nuts in trees, Bears store fat in their own bodies. Ranchers store food in corals. Farmers store food in barns, Orchard owners store it on trees.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 01:03 pm
@steffen phil,
steffen;124914 wrote:
Zetherin wrote:



Killing to obtain food is a main structural part of natures process on this planet since billion of years /since the beginning of life here and certainly the ingenious creator of the natural rules has taken care that there is no lasting agony connected with that (with tools like shock etc).

All animals in the free nature without exception will experience the danger to fall a prey during their life. To be killed means to die, and this is something every living thing will experience anyway.

So, every living thing has to die, but also all creatures have got the natural right to live the interesting, exiting and amazing life in the way they have created themselves. (Their physically body is designed to fit like a stone into a puzzle and that allows the amazing and exiting free life-experience)

Contrary to that holding a living thing in captivity under cruel circumstances for its entire life is not allowed under natures laws, and there are tools installed in the natures rules to prevent such a development in the free nature (see above explanations).

Sorry to say it directly, but I am 100% convinced that those of you arduously trying to find excuses for your dirty deeds (buying and consuming products of creatures that spend their entire live in cruel captivity), do only fight to avoid admitting what a horror you are creating (with full responsibility). You are not willing to accept any renunciations to live in the right (respectful) way regarding the weaker creatures, but instead your only goal is to live out complete and unbridled arrogance to satisfy your egoistical needs.

You are stronger and much more powerful than these poor animals (due to our leaving of the frame of free nature). But absolutely guaranteed there is not a cold computer in the background of the physical existence but something with extremely deep sense for justice and beauty. Ignoring the weaker living things and the natural rules will be connected with paying a very high price.

___________________________
www.basicrule.info


Oh.

So this was about God after all. I thought for a moment you were going to present a carefully reasoned argument.

This is me: :run:
 
steffen phil
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 01:26 pm
@Zetherin,
Quote:

Thinking ahead, planning, plotting etc... is probably the one thing that has made humanity so successful. It would be against our nature not to plan ahead. It is a structural part of our natural process. Hunter gatherers do it (seasonal rounds), slash and burn agriculturalists do it, pastoralists do it, agriculturalists do it. Functionally ranching is no different than farming and neither is any different than food storage. Humans have just found a more efficient way to pre-store food. Live food cannot rot. Non-humans store food for the future. Alligators stuff it away in cutbanks, Squirrels store nuts in trees, Bears store fat in their own bodies. Ranchers store food in corals. Farmers store food in barns, Orchard owners store it on trees.


We are discussing cruel captivity for creatures that have developed to live a free live, not about food-storage. Sorry but it is clear you just try to flee from the reality and it seems you already understand (just not accepting)


Quote:

Oh.

So this was about God after all. I thought for a moment you were going to present a carefully reasoned argument.

This is me: :run:



Certainly the arguments are carefully reasoned otherwise you would have been able to counter them.

Anyway, good luck on your hard trip!

______________________________
www.basicrule.info
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 01:35 pm
@steffen phil,
steffen;124929 wrote:
We are discussing cruel captivity for creatures that have developed to live a free live, not about food-storage. Sorry but it is clear you just try to flee from the reality and it seems you already understand (just not accepting)


We are talking about food storage, for that is the reason that the animals are held 'in captivity'. If the function was keeping them in captivity for entertainment purposes we might be having another conversation. I'm sorry but it seems that you are trying to flee from reality and it seems that you don't understand that we are by nature a species that maximizes its success by manipulating other species, just like any other species does. We just happen to be better at it.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 01:46 pm
@steffen phil,
steffen wrote:
Certainly the arguments are carefully reasoned otherwise you would have been able to counter them.


How am I supposed to counter the, "ingenious creator of the natural rules"?

You haven't presented a reasoned argument. All you've told us is that God doesn't want us holding animals captive, and if we do, we'll "pay a very high price". You've also voiced how despicable you think we are for preying on weaker creatures. I apologize, but this just doesn't impress me.

I still don't even know what natural rules you're speaking of. Bother to clarify? I asked for a pamphlet. Thanks.
 
steffen phil
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 02:32 pm
@Zetherin,
GoshisDead wrote:
Quote:

We are talking about food storage, for that is the reason that the animals are held 'in captivity'. If the function was keeping them in captivity for entertainment purposes we might be having another conversation.

No, we are not talking about food storage, we are talking about cruel and brutal torture and captivity during the entire live of very complex living things. Clearly this is the theme of this thread.
Maybe you should open a new thread, something about freezers would be sufficient for your matter.
GoshisDead wrote:
Quote:

I'm sorry but it seems that you are trying to flee from reality and it seems that you don't understand that we are by nature a species that maximizes its success by manipulating other species, just like any other species does. We just happen to be better at it.

Our nature is very special, indeed. We have left the frame of free nature and now we are already discovering the background of physical existence. To say we are just like any other species seems completaly blindfold. We are able to destroy everything due to our extreme power and now the goal is to find the golden way -respecting life including all the weaker living things. Without finding that track we will automatically destroy ourselves. As said arrogance is absoluely fatal in this stadium, and this is out of pure logic.

Zetherin wrote:
Quote:
How am I supposed to counter the, "ingenious creator of the natural rules"?

That would not be possible, I guess. But you can try counter my arguments instead of fleeing. For example when I say you are responsible for the cruelties toward the animals thats products you are consuming.

Zetherin wrote:
Quote:

All you've told us is that God doesn't want us holding animals captive, and if we do, we'll "pay a very high price".

Are you sure that is all I have told you? Maby you have read only three phrases of more than a hundred that I have presented. More likely you are trying to close your eyes to avoid being confronted with reality. Fingering around with the interals of nature without respect will be connected with paying a very high price for mankind (automatically self destruction) and there will be a very high price for a reflecting individual as well.

Quote:

I still don't even know what natural rules you're speaking of. Bother to clarify? I asked for a pamphlet. Thanks.

If you have read my posts in this thread you would have had some information already. What should I do? Copy all this over and over ? On my website you can find a deeper explanation on the basis of the strongest predator on earth, the saltwater crocodile. But anyway this is also not a real pamphlet. The best way to understand the deepest correlations of life is to cut you connection to the human society and spend time by yourself in the free nature.

___________________
www.basicrule.info
 
GoshisDead
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 02:36 pm
@steffen phil,
Steff:
Restating what you said in the light of an alternate argument is not pure logic, and re-stating what I have said in the light of the same argument is futile. We'll talk again when what you are saying actually says why what I say is wrong, not just the statement that it is wrong with a side note about kitchen appliances.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 02:43 pm
@steffen phil,
steffen wrote:
But you can try counter my arguments instead of fleeing. For example when I say you are responsible for the cruelties toward the animals thats products you are consuming.


But there is no argument to flee from. That seems to be some sort of prescriptive statement at best.

Quote:

If you have read my posts in this thread you would have had some information already


For my clarity, could you please tell me the post # where you explain what "natural rules" are, their origin, and the reasoning behind why we should abide by them?

Quote:

Are you sure that is all I have told you? Maby you have read only three phrases of more than a hundred that I have presented.


I'd say, yes, that is basically all you have told me. There are many assumptions within your posts which you have not even begun to explain. And, no, there doesn't seem to be any argument present. You have presented threats, though. If all that were necessary were that you attempt to scare people (this "very high price" bit) into believing what you say is true, you'd be on the right track.
 
Jebediah
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 02:58 pm
@steffen phil,
Steffen, if your realization about these things came from a lengthy solo wilderness trip, is it surprising that people who haven't done such things are unconvinced by your opinion? Generally, the more time people spend in the outdoors, the more important it is to them for it to be conserved.

But you are going beyond nature conservation here. Cows are not natural. They've been bred and domesticated over the years to be captive animals. That is their nature.
 
steffen phil
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 03:24 pm
@Jebediah,
Zetherin wrote:
[QUOTE]For my clarity, could you please tell me the post # where you explain what "natural rules" are, their origin, and the reasoning behind why we should abide by them?
[/QUOTE]
Well the posts are in this thread, easy to find. OK, here I copied some of the explanations:


Quote:

Certainly there has never been any captivity before we have created it.

Something has taken care that there can never be any kind of real captivity inside the system of the free nature, the tool to ensure that is a simple logic: A creature concentrating on stealing the freedom of another to arrange a durable food source, would automatically run into a blind ally. All creatures without exception, have created themselves by finding niches in each other's existence and all major characteristics of every living thing is constructed to fit like a very complex stone, into the much more complex puzzle of free nature. An animal that would use forcibly captivity for its own surviving would put energy into something that will automatically vanish pretty soon by degenerating or changing, just like sand will run through your fingers.

There has never been any species that has adapted to stay in captivity and there will never be one in this universe. Mankind's arrogant self-delusions in this matter are based on the fact that, for example, large mammal species become easier to handle when some important behavioural patterns have been reared away, which indeed is possible in a relatively short time. These misconceptions are also based on the inability to distinguish between free nature's main structures of symbiosis and parasitism on the one hand, and humans' invention of captivity on the other. Dogs might have adapted into a state of symbiosis with humans, and there are billion variations in the nature, mostly invisible for us.

However, the belief that cattle or pigs are already adapted to the state of captivity into which we have forced them is just an illusion. These species are already in a process of severe degeneration since our regarding activities began only a few thousand years ago. And this process is vastly accelerating, now that the natural races have almost completely vanished during the last centuries

As for the symbiosis between aphids and ants, the classical point of discussion when trying to find captivity in the free nature, the parties are contrary since many decades. One side is sure that the aphids are the winners of this connection, as they would need very little energy to keep armies of very strong bodyguards, while other scientists (often those with connections to the agricultural industry) will do everything to find a disadvantage on the side of the aphids.
The last phrase of the article quoted by GoshisDead is typical example:
Quote:
[QUOTE]
Professor Vincent Jansen of Royal Holloway's School of Biological Sciences, concludes: "Although both parties benefit from the interaction, this research shows is that all is not well in the world of aphids and ants. The aphids are manipulated to their disadvantage: for aphids the ants are a dangerous liaison.


Using common sense, there is no need to be a professor to understand that there is never a real disadvantage in a symbiotically system, as this would be made even automatically or one partner would change or vanish away from the other.

When I asked for opinions for the matter of captivity I did not mean situations where a prey is not instantly killed by the predator. Surely there are different methods of predators to keep the prey alive for hours or even days in seldom cases by paralysing it.


Mankind has used its extreme power, connected with leaving the frame of free nature and finding the tools, do develop borderless (or better frameless) cruelty and we should face this fact instead of closing our eyes.

There is no cold and greedy computer in the background of life, and what had created the rules of free nature has done aphenomenal and extraordinary job.

Spend some time alone in the free nature. Watch the animals dying when falling a prey or get injured or ill. You will see no real torture, as everything is happening pretty fast and mostly under some state of shock.
Each victim had spent an amazing and exiting free life as it was meant to be and the end would come pretty fast. Free nature is a very just and merciful system

And then, after this, walk into a farm where thousands of chicken (for example) are hold in captivity, five in each plain, very small cell, no chance to ever see the sun and the moon or even a single flower. Even the strange darkness, the heat and smell will make you walk out of this hell after few minutes.

So, captivity, agony and torture for animals and humans is clearly a creation of mankind, and therefore we are responsible. Nature will take care that this things will soon be over.

Quote:
It may be true that captivity is only committed by humans (but spiders keep insects captive in their web until they eat them), but that's only because we are the only animals that have the capacity to do so. Every predatory animal seeks to dominate. If lions had the intelligence and were to procreate at our pace I am reasonably sure that they would keep their favourite prey captive. Humans keep other animals captive in order to support their lifestyles and nutritional needs. This is the way of nature and we didn't make it this way. If you want to consume yourself with the suffering of every living thing then be my guest, but I refuse to hold a pessimistic view of what nature has deemed necessary.

1. Regarding spiders /definition of captivity I have answered this two times already
2. The rest I have answered also in this thread, so please read my explanation of 01 23 2010. Some further notes on that:
Concepts of captivity would have happened even between bacterium organisms.
The interactions between the different life-forms are very complex; certainly there would have been billions of captivity-like connections, if such a development could theoretically lead to a durable food-source and not toward a waste of energy. Our inability to understand these inevitabilities is based on the misconception as if our own developments are complex, and those in the free nature are relatively primitive. In reality the opposite is correct.
Quote:
I think that many farmers treat their livestock well in spite of the fact that they're holding them captive.


What do you mean with that? I don't understand this.


Quote:

I am a believer in animal rights against torture and cruelty, but I am an advocate of consuming animal products from food to clothing. I don't consider humanity cruel for domesticating and keeping livestock, but maybe that's because I have a different measure of cruelty than you.

This statement is an expression of the arrogance (not personal) toward the weaker living things that have clearly developed themselves to live a free life. Pretty sure, you would protest tempestuously even if somebody puts you in a little cell only for a week!
So, if you would be forced to live in a little cell for your whole live without ever seeing the sun or anything else accept your skin-to-skin neighbours (all of you have your beaks cut to avoid killing each others) and so on, would you think this is alright and not cruel? I would appreciate a clear answer from you on that.

The torture of the living things that produces your breakfast-eggs is a horror spectacle that is extremely cruel and arrogant. In the free nature there could never be something like this even on the approach.

We are clearly creators of hell. I know you think I do overdraw, so here is one more question to you: Have you ever visited some of the industrial egg-farmings and spend some time between the cages? Probably not, it might be better to do that before discussing such a matter.

Anyway, in the free nature all cruelties and torture (including injury and illness) are ended pretty fast. This is cleary happening under some kind of natural rules and therefore the hell we have created will be ended very soon as well. Spend some time in the real outdoors just by yourself and you will understand that arrogance is absolute fatal.

With our leaving of the frame of free nature we have not only been given huge power but obviously also a huge chance. It seems we have failed.


Parasitic systems are one of the very important parts of the natural process /system. Every organism has various parasites inside or outside. (Even we both while hacking on our desktop). Certainly parasites can be unconfortable, but if you are healthy you will be mostly be fine and on the point where real torture and argony begins death is already very close at hand. This is a automatically process, because awarness not to fall a prey and to be able to collect or hunt is absolute vital in this system and you need all senses for that matter.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Jebediah wrote:
Quote:

Steffen, if your realization about these things came from a lengthy solo wilderness trip, is it surprising that people who haven't done such things are unconvinced by your opinion? Generally, the more time people spend in the outdoors, the more important it is to them for it to be conserved.



We are not talking about conservation of free nature not about food storage an so on. We are talking about cruel and brutal torture and captivity during the entire live of very complex living things. Clearly this is the theme of this thread.

My opinion is absolute clear, I am sure that the things that we are doing with the weaker animals in brutal and cruel captivity is a major sin and pure horror, that this is only possible to create when having left the frame of free nature and that it is impossible to do such things without fatal consequences. And I am absolute sure about the fact that everybody consuming this tortured creatures is in fact the keeper.

If you (I mean all who think different) are absolute certain about your standpoints and if you can live with what you are doing, who knows, maybe then it is ok for you to stay on at this level.

____________________________
www.basicrule.info
 
hue-man
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 03:52 pm
@steffen phil,
steffen;124929 wrote:
Certainly the arguments are carefully reasoned otherwise you would have been able to counter them.


Reasoned arguments you say? You say that as if your sentiments are facts. Nearly everyone here has pointed out logical inconsistencies in your sentiments. When speaking of anything axiological, it would be wise to try and appeal to emotions than to try and convince thinkers that your sentiments are objective facts or logical. I disagree with you on both emotive and prescriptive grounds when it comes to this subject. I can't speak for everyone else, but your attempt to make me feel guilty for supporting (by consumption) industrial farming has failed. To some degree I do feel sorry for animals that live in those conditions. I just don't feel sorry enough to object to it. Blame it on my appetite.
 
steffen phil
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 04:13 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote
Quote:

Nearly everyone here has pointed out logical inconsistencies in your sentiments.

No, the problem is that almost nobody who feels that he/she is doing something extremely wrong /cruel would be ready to face such a fact.

hue-man wrote:
Quote:

can't speak for everyone else, but your attempt to make me feel guilty for supporting (by consumption) industrial farming has failed. To some degree I do feel sorry for animals that live in those conditions. I just don't feel sorry enough to object to it. Blame it on my appetite.



Ok, its your appetite. Deep wisedom reqires a lot of energy, I guess.

Steffen wrote:
Quote:

My opinion is absolute clear, I am sure that the things that we are doing with the weaker animals in brutal and cruel captivity is a major sin and pure horror, that this is only possible to create when having left the frame of free nature and that it is impossible to do such things without fatal consequences. And I am absolute sure about the fact that everybody consuming this tortured creatures is in fact the keeper.

If you (I mean all who think different) are absolute certain about your standpoints and if you can live with what you are doing, who knows, maybe then it is ok for you to stay on at this level.

 
Didymos Thomas
 
Reply Thu 4 Feb, 2010 08:45 pm
@Zetherin,
Zetherin;124870 wrote:
But isn't the ultimate disregard for the animal's conscious experience the killing of the animal?


Seems to me.

Zetherin;124870 wrote:
I'm just trying to understand why a person would think that killing an animal isn't as, if not more, morally wrong, as making the animal live in horrible conditions.


I really have no idea how people can hold such a position.
 
Zetherin
 
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 12:16 am
@steffen phil,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
I really have no idea how people can hold such a position.


I mean that it seems to me there are many meat-eaters who have a big problem with how animals are kept. In other words, it appears they have no problem with the animal dying for food, as long as the animal is able to live a clean, free life. Isn't that right?

It just seems strange to me that they have no qualms about the death of the animal in and of itself. The qualms come into play in regards to the conditions the animal is kept prior to death.
 
steffen phil
 
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 04:18 am
@Zetherin,
Zetherin wrote:
Quote:

I mean that it seems to me there are many meat-eaters who have a big problem with how animals are kept. In other words, it appears they have no problem with the animal dying for food, as long as the animal is able to live a clean, free life. Isn't that right?

It just seems strange to me that they have no qualms about the death of the animal in and of itself. The qualms come into play in regards to the conditions the animal is kept prior to death.


Who are "they"? I dont think there are "many meat eaters" in the present human society who understand the extreme cruelty of today's mass-captivity conditions but at the same time have no qualms at all about the death of any animal. So, obviousely "they" are not real people, "they "are constructed by you to find a way to avoid facing the guilt, which is connected with being a keeper under such circumstances.

By the way: The killing of the imprisoned animals is something of extreme cruelty itself, and absolute perverse. I have read about studies that birds and mammals get unusual nervous hours or even days before they are grabbed out of their cell to be butchered. It seems like their instincts are still very sensitive.
I think there is no horror movie available to illustrate such brutal circumstances. Just try to imagine the situation of these poor animals. They are insulted from the first to the last second of their horrible life.

I can assure you: Something that terrible is absolute impossible in the free nature, even on the approach.
I have spend years in the real outdoors, have seen thousands of animals dying there. Fall a prey is connected with complete surprise and shock, and often with a chance to escape. I know exactly how it feels to take care not to fall a prey on an all day basis and even how it feels to escape in the last second. (Very exiting experience, as everything in the free nature)

_____________________________
www.basicrule.info
 
hue-man
 
Reply Fri 5 Feb, 2010 01:58 pm
@steffen phil,
I'm not sold on the sentiment that keeping animals captive in these conditions to supply food and clothing demand is wrong, but for the sake of argument let's say that it is wrong. Are there any conditions for which it would be morally right to keep them in these conditions? For example, would it be morally permissible if our nutritional requirements demanded it?
 
steffen phil
 
Reply Sat 6 Feb, 2010 05:53 am
@hue-man,
hue-man wrote:
Quote:

Are there any conditions for which it would be morally right to keep them in these conditions? For example, would it be morally permissible if our nutritional requirements demanded it?


Guarantied there can never be a necessity to treat animals that arrogant and ignorant as it is done in these days and therefor it is certainly not "morally permissible"

Anyway, let's take the following situation: I am lost, no communication tool and alone with four little kids. We are hiding in a cave, dangerous predators around and the winter close at hand. It seems there will be no valuable food available and no chance to leave the cave for month. I see a colony of rabbits and I would know they will not be available for hunting in the wintertime. Without any doubt I would catch as many of the rabbits as possible to keep them in the cave.

But now, in this situation as a reflecting human being, and responsible for the kids, I would also do everything possible to give the rabbits the most comfort that I can create. And I would take advantage of the situation to teach the kids that it is very important to treat these animals as respectful as possible. I would even try to convince them to accept renunciations, for example take a not so comfortable place to sleep in order to provide a good place for the rabbits. When spring arrives, we would free the remaining animals and the kids will have learned the most valuable thing possible.

So now, let's go up to reality: We are not sitting in a cave with four little kids, we are sitting on a couch with our fat ass while billions of animals suffering in the hell that we have created because of borderless greed and ignorance.

Mankind has not found the most valuable thing and is now almost completely bestialized (without understanding this). Not having found respect toward the weaker living things despite our extreme power (connected with having left the frame of free nature) is the root cause for complete self-destruction very soon (physical for our species and spiritual for you as individual.). As said, this is based on pure logic.

___________________________
www.basicrule.info
 
hue-man
 
Reply Sat 6 Feb, 2010 10:57 am
@steffen phil,
steffen;125398 wrote:
hue-man wrote:


Guarantied there can never be a necessity to treat animals that arrogant and ignorant as it is done in these days and therefor it is certainly not "morally permissible"

Anyway, let's take the following situation: I am lost, no communication tool and alone with four little kids. We are hiding in a cave, dangerous predators around and the winter close at hand. It seems there will be no valuable food available and no chance to leave the cave for month. I see a colony of rabbits and I would know they will not be available for hunting in the wintertime. Without any doubt I would catch as many of the rabbits as possible to keep them in the cave.

But now, in this situation as a reflecting human being, and responsible for the kids, I would also do everything possible to give the rabbits the most comfort that I can create. And I would take advantage of the situation to teach the kids that it is very important to treat these animals as respectful as possible. I would even try to convince them to accept renunciations, for example take a not so comfortable place to sleep in order to provide a good place for the rabbits. When spring arrives, we would free the remaining animals and the kids will have learned the most valuable thing possible.

So now, let's go up to reality: We are not sitting in a cave with four little kids, we are sitting on a couch with our fat ass while billions of animals suffering in the hell that we have created because of borderless greed and ignorance.

Mankind has not found the most valuable thing and is now almost completely bestialized (without understanding this). Not having found respect toward the weaker living things despite our extreme power (connected with having left the frame of free nature) is the root cause for complete self-destruction very soon (physical for our species and spiritual for you as individual.). As said, this is based on pure logic.

___________________________
www.basicrule.info


This is not pure logic. This is pure emotion. It's not a logical fact that a lack of respect toward weaker living things (as if apex predators have ever respected human well being) will lead to our own destruction. The fact of the matter is that we keep these animals in such conditions because we need to in order to supply our nutritional demand.

Also, I don't know in what sense you use the word spiritual, but I assume you mean it in an immaterial way. In the sense that I use the term, your spirit has been killed by moralism and pity. Your moralistic dogmatism runs colder than my appetite. I'm afraid that the world (and indeed the 'just' nature) you dream of does not exist.
 
 

 
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